Somethings going on...

[Domie]

mornin folks. I did a 100% beef salami about a month ago (as well as 6 other things) and I've got good white mold growth on the collagen case, after using the mold 600. I've been watching the salami dry and I'm getting serious case separation. I pulled a piece of out yesterday and cut the case off a section. I was dismayed to find green mold under the casing in the areas that had gaps between the meat and case.
For the record...
Flavor of Italy culture, fermented to 5.1
Non protein lined case.
chamber temps between 53 and 57 F
Humdidity has been tough to keep under 85% (lots of new product going in).
Not too much air movement. (have a controlled computer fan in the chamber.)
Not too much light intrusion as the chamber sits in my mostly dark garage.
Mold 600 on the product.

My LandJager was in the same chamber for the same period of time, but, natural hog casing and no case separation....It cam out in 27 days..perfect?

Any idea what's goin on?

 

[daveomak]

Target humidity is 80%... Air pockets in the meat when you stuffed it in the casing... Maybe the meat was not mixed adequately to the "sticky" state so it wouldn't stick to the casing...
I'm thinking the mold spores had to be in the meat,or in the casings, before it was stuffed... Poor cleanliness, during processing, could be the culprit... Cajuneric could give some insight into this situation..
You said, "After using mold 600"... At what stage in the process did you "spray, wipe etc" the mold 600 ???

 

[indaswamp]

You said high humidity >85%RH.... how much higher? Are you tracking weight loss? weight loss can slow in a high humidity environment with too much moisture on/near the surface of the salami, which can cause casing separation.

I believe this is the cause of your casing separation. High humidity 85-90%RH for the first week-10 days is OK, but after that it is best to keep below 85%RH.

 

[indaswamp]

Also- check your chamber walls, corners, etc.... very well for bad mold. You may need to sanitize your chamber after the green mold bloom under the casing.

 

[daveomak]

Did you follow these instructions ??

This culture is very special as it contains 4 species of bacteria that are incredibly robust. Flavor of Italy is designed to bring to you a Southern European, Mediterranean style of flavor with a well rounded aroma with Bioprotective Qualities that protect against Listeria.. This culture is considered a "fast acidification" culture so the ferment time will be ultra quick. 12-36 hours
Here's what you need to know.
Keep the culture frozen till you are ready to use
1 tsp of culture in 1/2 cup of water for every 10 pounds of mince meat
Allow the culture to rehydrate for 30 minutes prior to using
Use Dextrose as the fermentable sugar (the more you add the lower your pH will drop) Ferment at 75F - 90F for 12-36 hours
Humidity during fermentation stage 90%
Target pH should be 4.9 - 5.2
Once target is reached transfer to a drying chamber set to 55F and 75% - 80% humidity.
Let dry till target weight loss has been achieved (30% - 40%)

FERMENTATION:
This doesn't have to be complicated. Because Flavor of Italy has a broad temperature range of fermentation (75f-90F) you can literally hang this anywhere this temperature can be achieved. I use a smoker (turned off) and set my temp to 85F and my humidity to 90% but you can place this in your oven with a light on, in a cellar, in your kitchen, in an ice chest and a tray of water. It really doesn't matter.
IMPORATNT Fermenting TIPS: The hotter you have the temp (90F) the faster your salami will ferment. The lower you have the temp (75F) the slower it will ferment and the better the color, the flavor, and the aroma will develop.
Dextrose: If you are new to salami making the general rule of thumb for Dextrose is 1% will generally drop your pH by 1 full point. It is recommended to start with .37% - .5% (of the total weight of your meat) and see where that gets you. The more dextrose you add the lower your pH will drop.

 

[Domie]

Also- check your chamber walls, corners, etc.... very well for bad mold. You may need to sanitize your chamber after the green mold bloom under the casing.

DRAT, I sanitized the entire cabinet before i started. I thought of that but I flashlight checked add the nooks and crannies yesterday but see no indication of any molds whatsoever in the chamber. Its a merchandise cooler that is totally white inside, so pretty visible. I tore it down to the bare white walls and sanitized before I started this, even took out all the mechanics in there.
Mold 600 was painted on directly after stuffing/before ferment.

I keep adding product in there and some of the 85-87 humdidity is probably that. I've got 2 evadrys in there the whole time just to keep it at 86%

 

[indaswamp]

One other cause I just thought of...
Did you keep the meat and fat super cold (below 35*F) prior to grinding? Are your grinder knives and plates super sharp? Did you do multiple grinds on the mince?

All this matters for particle definition. Too warm and fat can smear; smeared fat can cause casing separation. Multiple grinds can smear fat as well. dull blades will smear fat instead of getting a clean cut. Smeared fat will slow drying.

 

[Domie]

One other cause I just thought of...
Did you keep the meat and fat super cold (below 35*F) prior to grinding? Are your grinder knives and plates super sharp? Did you do multiple grinds on the mince?

All this matters for particle definition. Too warm and fat can smear; smeared fat can cause casing separation. Multiple grinds can smear fat as well. dull blades will smear fat instead of getting a clean cut. Smeared fat will slow drying.

Brand new grinder. fat and meat was still icy when I started the grind, 32 deg.
Grinder was still frosty from the freezer. One grind and into a freezing 25 lb mixer.

 

[indaswamp]

DRAT, I sanitized the entire cabinet before i started. I thought of that but I flashlight checked add the nooks and crannies yesterday but see no indication of any molds whatsoever in the chamber. Its a merchandise cooler that is totally white inside, so pretty visible. I tore it down to the bare white walls and sanitized before I started this, even took out all the mechanics in there.
Mold 600 was painted on directly after stuffing/before ferment.

I keep adding product in there and some of the 85-87 humdidity is probably that. I've got 2 evadrys in there the whole time just to keep it at 86%

Did you sanitize your equipment prior to stuffing? the stuffer tube, grinder head, ect...? contamination could happen that way...

Could just be from the air though while stuffing, and when the casing separation happened, conditions were right for the green mold to bloom.

 

[Domie]

Did you sanitize your equipment prior to stuffing? the stuffer tube, grinder head, ect...? contamination could happen that way...

Could just be from the air though while stuffing, and when the casing separation happened, conditions were right for the green mold to bloom.

next question....
Is that particular salami ruined?
no case hardening, no bad looks to the interior, no bad smells, good color, so far.
Seems a bit soft yet, but its only 70% way to weight loss and time figured for drying (60 days).
My plan is to leave it go the entire 55-60 days just to see what it does??

 

[indaswamp]

next question....
Is that particular salami ruined?
no case hardening, no bad looks to the interior, no bad smells, good color, so far.
Seems a bit soft yet, but its only 70% way to weight loss and time figured for drying (60 days).
My plan is to leave it go the entire 55-60 days just to see what it does??

Ruined? I would say no. with green mold, generally you can wipe off with vinegar with no issues to the salami. But how bad is the casing separation? is it just the ends or the entire salami? If just the end, then I would cut off the part that had separated and either cover the end of the salami with some collagen sheet or just hang and let it dry further...sacrifice the cut end and throw it away when salami is done....cut off about 1/4" and chunk it in the trash. (could eat it, but it will be very funky from the mold).

 

[Domie]

Ruined? I would say no. with green mold, generally you can wipe off with vinegar with no issues to the salami. But how bad is the casing separation? is it just the ends or the entire salami? If just the end, then I would cut off the part that had separated and either cover the end of the salami with some collagen sheet or just hang and let it dry further...sacrifice the cut end and throw it away when salami is done....cut off about 1/4" and chunk it in the trash. (could eat it, but it will be very funky from the mold).

The entire length has ridges that are raised off of the salami. The ridges are 1/8 high and about a 1/4" wide. Just enough to allow moisture to gather in there.
Thanks for the input. I'm just gonna let er dry and see how it turns out.
If nothing else . . I have a new salami....Zebra Salami!

 

[BGKYSmoker]

In many European countries (France, Italy and others) it is a normal occurence to see a salami with a white surface mold. This is how it has been made for hundreds of years, the mold is intentional and it contributes to the wonderful flavor of the sausage. It also protects the sausage from the effects of light and oxygen which helps to preserve color and slows down rancidity of fat. Mold covered salamis are not smoked as the smoke application will prevent molds from growing on the surface. Cold smoking sausages (below 25º C, 78º F after fermentation (after around 48 hours) will prevent mold from growing on its surface. Mold can be removed by wiping it off with a rag soaked in vinegar solution. The color of the mold should be white or off-white and not yellow, green, or black. As mold in time can grow to a considerable length it is brushed off before consumption.

Yeast and molds grow much slower than bacteria in fermented meats and sausages and they develop later in a ripening process. They utilize some of the lactic acid that was created during the fermentation stage thus increasing pH (lowering acidity) what as a result improves flavor in a slower fermented product. They don't seem to be affected by a pH drop in the fermentation stage and will grow in a vast range of temperatures (8º -25º C, 46º -78º F) as long as there is high humidity in a chamber. To ensure fast growth at the begining temperatures higher than 20º C (68º F) and humidity over 90% is required.

• Yeast - Debaromyces
• Mold - Penicillium

Nobel mold is fine white powdery (Penicillium) good mold.
Non desirable molds include black , green, brown, redish with fuzz. Green molds in the powdery state have been know to be safe.

 

[Cajuneric]

Hello Domie.. Looks like there are a couple issues here. Synthetic casings can be a little finicky. Collagen or even fibrous. Even on great days these casings can separate in some areas. Protein lined casings tend to adhere a lot better but I find that adding enough salt and cure to your recipe and mixing till your batter gets extremely tacky tends to mitigate casing separation. One cool ingredient that really helps with binding is the addition of Non Fat Dry Powder Milk. Adding this to your salami mix also helps with good protein extraction which will give you a better bind. It also has cool benefits when it comes to fermentation but that's for a different thread .

If your blades and plates were new and the meat was chilled I see no issue there unless it was too chilled and it bogged down your grinder as you were grinding it. This too can cause fat to smear, but as I look at your picture it doesn't look like that's the case. It looks to me that your meat could have used a tiny bit more mixing to pull a little more myocin out which would have helped it adhere better. With that being said your salami looks fine! If you hit your target weight loss, I would give it a wine or vinegar wash and enjoy that tasty goodness!

The other issue I see is humidity. At 85+ rH you will start to see all sorts of fun mold start to grow. Especially when there's air pockets between your meat and casing. Do you have a dehumidifier in your chamber? Also do you have a humidifier in your chamber? If so would you mind sharing the control settings with me..

 

[Domie]

Hello Domie.. Looks like there are a couple issues here. Synthetic casings can be a little finicky. Collagen or even fibrous. Even on great days these casings can separate in some areas. Protein lined casings tend to adhere a lot better but I find that adding enough salt and cure to your recipe and mixing till your batter gets extremely tacky tends to mitigate casing separation. One cool ingredient that really helps with binding is the addition of Non Fat Dry Powder Milk. Adding this to your salami mix also helps with good protein extraction which will give you a better bind. It also has cool benefits when it comes to fermentation but that's for a different thread .

If your blades and plates were new and the meat was chilled I see no issue there unless it was too chilled and it bogged down your grinder as you were grinding it. This too can cause fat to smear, but as I look at your picture it doesn't look like that's the case. It looks to me that your meat could have used a tiny bit more mixing to pull a little more myocin out which would have helped it adhere better. With that being said your salami looks fine! If you hit your target weight loss, I would give it a wine or vinegar wash and enjoy that tasty goodness!

The other issue I see is humidity. At 85+ rH you will start to see all sorts of fun mold start to grow. Especially when there's air pockets between your meat and casing. Do you have a dehumidifier in your chamber? Also do you have a humidifier in your chamber? If so would you mind sharing the control settings with me..

Thanks.
I do use non fat dry milk powder.
meat/fat never hesitated the grinder.
possible I could have mixed it more? It was certainly tacky though?
chamber has heat/cool abilities and I'm using the inkbird dual controller. Temp runs between 53 and 57. No issues here.
Chamber has 2- evadry 1100 units in it and a humidifier. Controller is a inkbird dual controller. Issues here. I struggle to get the chamber under 85-86%
I'm struggling with the humdity so, I've unplugged the humidifier and removed it from the cabinet. (figured why have water sitting in there).
Also recalibrated all 3 humidity probes I have in there. (digiten electric, the inkbird, and the engbird battery powered record keeping probe), all are within 1% of each other.
This morning I tried something....
I have my temperature range setting on the inkbird set at a 3+- swing.
As we all know, the cooling turns on, the humidity drops. So, I got to thinking that maybe I'm running too long of an off cycle? So I tightened the range swing down to +1-3. So at todays temps here in Bama (67deg, 90%rh), the cooling component is cycling quicker. That has me running about 83% average humdidity. Better, but when temps change, this temporary fix is gonna go out the window.
One other thing... In 4 weeks time I have loaded 45-50 pounds of different product into a 30"x30"x5' Pepsi merchandise cooler space. Plenty of space between all of the hanging product but..... am I overloading the chamber?

One other thing. Today I lowered the fan speed on my computer fan by 40%. Thats evening out some of the wild swings.

 

[Domie]

Did you follow these instructions ??

This culture is very special as it contains 4 species of bacteria that are incredibly robust. Flavor of Italy is designed to bring to you a Southern European, Mediterranean style of flavor with a well rounded aroma with Bioprotective Qualities that protect against Listeria.. This culture is considered a "fast acidification" culture so the ferment time will be ultra quick. 12-36 hours
Here's what you need to know.
Keep the culture frozen till you are ready to use
1 tsp of culture in 1/2 cup of water for every 10 pounds of mince meat
Allow the culture to rehydrate for 30 minutes prior to using
Use Dextrose as the fermentable sugar (the more you add the lower your pH will drop) Ferment at 75F - 90F for 12-36 hours
Humidity during fermentation stage 90%
Target pH should be 4.9 - 5.2
Once target is reached transfer to a drying chamber set to 55F and 75% - 80% humidity.
Let dry till target weight loss has been achieved (30% - 40%)

FERMENTATION:
This doesn't have to be complicated. Because Flavor of Italy has a broad temperature range of fermentation (75f-90F) you can literally hang this anywhere this temperature can be achieved. I use a smoker (turned off) and set my temp to 85F and my humidity to 90% but you can place this in your oven with a light on, in a cellar, in your kitchen, in an ice chest and a tray of water. It really doesn't matter.
IMPORATNT Fermenting TIPS: The hotter you have the temp (90F) the faster your salami will ferment. The lower you have the temp (75F) the slower it will ferment and the better the color, the flavor, and the aroma will develop.
Dextrose: If you are new to salami making the general rule of thumb for Dextrose is 1% will generally drop your pH by 1 full point. It is recommended to start with .37% - .5% (of the total weight of your meat) and see where that gets you. The more dextrose you add the lower your pH will drop.

Thanks Dave.
Spot on. I'm following those guidelines pretty close. One difference is that I keep my ferment temps down around 78. I have no need to rush it so...
My ph meter reading on this batch was recorded at 5.1, (at 18 hrs).
This one had 4 grams of dextrose for 4-1/2 pounds of product.
I multi use my smoker also. I just use a light bulb for the lower temps and a small humidifier in there also.

 

[Mmmm Meat]

Hey - Boring Friday night, nothing better to do than read old threads. I've read a ton lately and I've seen several discussions about casing separation. I couldn't remember any of the fine points so I had to look a bit more. I've been searching around the internet just because you got me curious. Barring some better answer, I think the table, page two on this website might be the best answer. http://cdn.lemproducts.com/downloads/troubleshooting_casings.pdf

The high humidity explanation seems to fit your situation pretty well. I think that your idea that you may be overloading the chamber might be the correct answer. You've got a fair amount of space available, but if you continue to add new high moisture product to the chamber over an extended period of time (a couple - three weeks or so), I would expect that you would have trouble keeping RH in check.

My chamber is roughly twice the volume of yours. I have something like 10 lbs of Salami plus a Coppa hanging, all added in the last 10 days. A second Coppa will be added Sunday. The fridge I'm using drops the RH to 65% or so as it cools then it recovers to 80% in the next 3 - 4 minutes (with the humidifier running). I'm using two Inkbird humidity controllers that create a spread in the high and low RH levels that helps the system maintain from wild swings. The fridge runs a cooling cycle maybe three or four times per hour or so. My dehumidifier has only turned on when I've been playing with the controller settings. In three weeks of running (with and without product inside) I've collected maybe 5 - 10 ml of water collected in that dehumidifier unit.

All other things being equal, it seems that the amount of moist product per cubic volume likely limits the ability of the controller to maintain RHs at more reasonable levels. Indaswamp's suggestion of using a second controller helped me a lot. You might want to consider adding a second humidity controller in the future (or spread out your new additions of fresh product over a wider timeframe). Good luck!