Sodium Erythorbate/Cure Excellerator

[Tinner340]

As long as you don't mix both the cure and the sodium erythorbate together in the water.

As long as you don't mix both the cure and the sodium erythorbate together in the water.....

Hope I didn't confuse the point. I add erythorbate with my dry mix and cure with my water.

 

[Fueling Around]

As long as you don't mix both the cure and the sodium erythorbate together in the water.....

Why?
You have to mix both in liquid for injection

 

[indaswamp]

Why would you need to inject Sodium Erythorbate?

 

[SmokinEdge]

Why would you need to inject Sodium Erythorbate?

The antioxidant properties of SE is really why I use it. It fixes the color, helps with fat rancidity (Freezing) and helps to deplete nitrite. I think that my hams taste better with SE, and I think the same in my smoked sausage. I do not use it with bacon, but would if I could find a way in my process. SE has no down side in cured and or smoked meats. It is counterproductive in semi-dried or dried meats and sausage, but for the rest of the meats I add it when I can. Not for the speeding of the cure, but because of the better quality of the final product. It’s good stuff if used the right way Keith.

 

[Fueling Around]

Why would you need to inject Sodium Erythorbate?

Food safety regs require commercial meat producers to use sodium erythorbate (se) when injecting sodium nitrite (sn) cure. The rationale is not to accelerate the cure times, but to ensure depletion of unused nitrite that doesn't fixate to meat. The added results of fixing the deep color consumers associate with cured meat and the antioxidant (preservative) property for both meat and fat is a win-win situation for producers.
Of course, the commercial producers add the maximum amount of STPP binder to hang on to the 20% pump moisture. The high pump is also why the commercial producers are limited to ~120 ppm SN in their cure.

I'm looking beyond the traditional recipes that use SE only in ground meat products with #1 cure.

 

[indaswamp]

Cajuneric posted a great video on this topic recently....


No need to rest overnight when using a cure accelerator.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Cajuneric posted a great video on this topic recently....


No need to rest overnight when using a cure accelerator.

Agree, but,,,

The wait brings the flavors together and makes a better sausage. Sure you can grind mix stuff and smoke same day,,,, but why would you?

 

[indaswamp]

Agree, but,,,

The wait brings the flavors together and makes a better sausage. Sure you can grind mix stuff and smoke same day,,,, but why would you?

Money. That is why commercial processors do it. But I agree color will be better if you wait one day to smoke.

 

[Tinner340]

Agree, but,,,

The wait brings the flavors together and makes a better sausage. Sure you can grind mix stuff and smoke same day,,,, but why would you?

Hmmm, you said earlier in this thread... "Erythorbate doesn’t work that fast. It’s really not a mix stuff and smoke product".

 

[SmokinEdge]

Hmmm, you said earlier in this thread... "Erythorbate doesn’t work that fast. It’s really not a mix stuff and smoke product".

I also told you to do your homework and do two pieces the same but one with erythorbate and one without and see which one is different. Still waiting.

You just can’t know what you don’t know. Fact.

 

[Tinner340]

I also told you to do your homework and do two pieces the same but one with erythorbate and one without and see which one is different. Still waiting.

You just can’t know what you don’t know. Fact.

Photos were posted when you asked, did you not see the post?
You told me to smoke 2 sausages, 1 with SE and 1 without, then told me, and I quote ("In the final product as color and texture you will see no difference") There is a huge difference in the 2 sausages. That said, I'm not sure what that has to do with using SE to facilitate smoking sausages immediately after stuffing??? but I sent photos anyway..

Please make sure you do your research before posting, you say something and then change your opinion shortly after realizing you are wrong. Be carful, some one may read your first post and not your second.
In my opinion, I think people want a safe place to come for information about sausage making that is based on fact and current publishing's, not from someone who just wants to be the smartest person in the room. :D

 

[wesir]

The wait brings the flavors together and makes a better sausage. Sure you can grind mix stuff and smoke same day,,,, but why would you?

Mostly due to time constraints, by the time I get off work I can't be bothered to spend 2-3 hours mixing and stuffing so it's easier to just stuff and smoke on a Saturday/Sunday, also you don't have to find room in the fridge for 15-20lb of fragile meat strands if you go directly from stuffing to smoking.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Erythorbate doesn’t work that fast. It’s really not a mix stuff and smoke product. A lot of commercial bacon and ham producers use erythorbate in their injections by federal law but they then go into a vacuum tumbler for many hours. The erythorbate does speed the transformation of nitrite into nitric oxide and is so mild that it is also used in brines. It is not an instant cure accelerator. What it does well is fix cured color and preserve against fat rancidity. Mix, stuff and smoke same day it won’t do much for nitrite reduction, it needs some time.

I dont change my mind Tinner340 . This is what I’ve said, I also explained the process of why erythorbate is added, else where.

You want to put words in my mouth because you, frankly, don’t like the fact that I’ve stated that sodium erythorbate does not work so fast as to mix, stuff and smoke. This is all because you have watched some tube videos who say different, that’s rich, but I will get to their reasoning Later.

Once again, sodium erythorbate is a cure accelerator, meaning that it does speed up the curing process, by about 1/3. Sodium erythorbate does not cause an instantize of cure nor the conversion of nitrite to nitric oxide Instantly. All cure accelerators derived from vitamin C speed the process. Ascorbic acid the fastest, citric acid or ECA the next then sodium erythorbate the last. Erythorbate is the slowest acting but the most user friendly as it does not impart a sour taste and does not accelerate the cure to fast.

The USDA sets the limits of in going nitrate/nitrite for food safety. The limit in ground meat such as sausage is set at 156ppm for in going nitrite. If you took a bite of that sausage with 156ppm nitrite still in the sausage, it’s still safe. That’s why the limit is set there. A man that weighs about 150 pounds would have to consume about 14 pounds of cured meat all at once that contained 200ppm nitrite to get sick, that is per Marianski. So the USDA is not worried about nitrite intake with in guidelines. Otherwise they would regulate the intake of green leafy vegetables and some root crops and would be all over products that contain celery powder labeled as “uncured”, but they are not all over any of those food products. They only regulate products that are considered cured by their definition. This means the addition of sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite. Spinach, beets or celery do not count.

From here the USDA wants to deplete as much nitrite as possible in the final product. This is because of the 1970’s scare about nitrosamines. These can form from nitrites in various ways supposedly, so eliminating them the best you can in finished product is best practice.

Now enter Sodium Erythorbate. This product speeds the conversion of nitrite to nitric oxide but also has antioxidants that prevent the formation of nitrosamines. Using SE makes product safe in the end both ways, that’s why it’s mandated in some products and widely used commercially. So if the final product still contains nitrite, read going from stuffer to smoker, it’s still safe the USDA says because no nitrosamines can form. You see it’s these nitrosamines that the regulators are worried about, not the nitrites. SE provides a buffer here. And with that I’m out of the converstation.

 

[Tinner340]

I dont change my mind Tinner340 . This is what I’ve said, I also explained the process of why erythorbate is added, else where.

You want to put words in my mouth because you, frankly, don’t like the fact that I’ve stated that sodium erythorbate does not work so fast as to mix, stuff and smoke. This is all because you have watched some tube videos who say different, that’s rich, but I will get to their reasoning Later.

Once again, sodium erythorbate is a cure accelerator, meaning that it does speed up the curing process, by about 1/3. Sodium erythorbate does not cause an instantize of cure nor the conversion of nitrite to nitric oxide Instantly. All cure accelerators derived from vitamin C speed the process. Ascorbic acid the fastest, citric acid or ECA the next then sodium erythorbate the last. Erythorbate is the slowest acting but the most user friendly as it does not impart a sour taste and does not accelerate the cure to fast.

The USDA sets the limits of in going nitrate/nitrite for food safety. The limit in ground meat such as sausage is set at 156ppm for in going nitrite. If you took a bite of that sausage with 156ppm nitrite still in the sausage, it’s still safe. That’s why the limit is set there. A man that weighs about 150 pounds would have to consume about 14 pounds of cured meat all at once that contained 200ppm nitrite to get sick, that is per Marianski. So the USDA is not worried about nitrite intake with in guidelines. Otherwise they would regulate the intake of green leafy vegetables and some root crops and would be all over products that contain celery powder labeled as “uncured”, but they are not all over any of those food products. They only regulate products that are considered cured by their definition. This means the addition of sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite. Spinach, beets or celery do not count.

From here the USDA wants to deplete as much nitrite as possible in the final product. This is because of the 1970’s scare about nitrosamines. These can form from nitrites in various ways supposedly, so eliminating them the best you can in finished product is best practice.

Now enter Sodium Erythorbate. This product speeds the conversion of nitrite to nitric oxide but also has antioxidants that prevent the formation of nitrosamines. Using SE makes product safe in the end both ways, that’s why it’s mandated in some products and widely used commercially. So if the final product still contains nitrite, read going from stuffer to smoker, it’s still safe the USDA says because no nitrosamines can form. You see it’s these nitrosamines that the regulators are worried about, not the nitrites. SE provides a buffer here. And with that I’m out of the converstati

There you go again, trying to be the smartest person in the room lol. Wow, that must have taken all day!! Words in your mouth???, I quoted you exactly.
Just do your research before you post, if you are wrong or misspeak, admit it and move on, like everyone else. You'll gain more respect from others that way, isn't that what you are trying to accomplish?

 

[Ansio]

As long as you don't mix both the cure and the sodium erythorbate together in the water....

You are being talked about on reddit!



Why wouldn't you add it with the cure and water?

 

[indaswamp]

You are being talked about on reddit!

I am not on reddit.

 

[nlife]

I am not on reddit.

It appears as though someone on Reddit posted a link to one of your comments here on SMF where you say not to mix the two together in water, but you didn't explain why it shouldn't be done.

 

[indaswamp]

It appears as though someone on Reddit posted a link to one of your comments here on SMF where you say not to mix the two together in water, but you didn't explain why it shouldn't be done.

Wow....this is a 2 year old thread.
I guess I should have explained my perspective better. I posted my understanding of it at the time. I was thinking in terms of a long soak, like a ham or loin. Fueling Around clarified this nicely. Yes, a pump for commercial products is done, and yes SE is mixed in water for that. I had ascorbate and SE confused in my mind when I posted my original comment. Just goes to show the internet is a big place, and SMF has a lot of lurkers. I should post more clearly in the future.

 

[nlife]

Wow....this is a 2 year old thread.
I guess I should have explained my perspective better. I posted my understanding of it at the time. I was thinking in terms of a long soak, like a ham or loin. Fueling Around clarified this nicely. Yes, a pump for commercial products is done, and yes SE is mixed in water for that. I had ascorbate and SE confused in my mind when I posted my original comment. Just goes to show the internet is a big place, and SMF has a lot of lurkers. I should post more clearly in the future.

That makes sense.

The internet has a long memory and SMF certainly does have a lot of lurkers. You have to hope that people understand the principles of research and how perspectives/understanding of something changes over time as we gain new knowledge. Hence the need to look at the date it was published/posted.

Regardless of the date you originally posted the comment, I appreciate you clarifying it today.

 

[indaswamp]

I learned a ton from a meat science book by a guy last name Toldra. The book new is like $300 bucks. I found one used for less than half that and jumped on it. I bought it mainly for dry curing details, but it covers sausages too. Way more in depth than most are looking for. But I have a good background in organic chemistry and like to get off into the weeds with the nuts and bolts of how the chemical processes work.