Question For You Electricians Out There?!

[Rafter H BBQ]

So, first off sorry I have threads I have started and need to respond to… my apologies! Life has just been crazy busy as of late!

So, on to my question if you electrician folks would not mind chiming in… I’d be so appreciative!

My in laws passed as some of you know and we have had some struggles on deciding what to do with the house. My wife’s heart was broken and she shut down for a couple years… no judgement as I am fortunate to still have my parents… I just tried to be there for her, to say I understand would be unfair. Though they were my second parents… and miss them very much.

We decided to not sell and use the house as a rental. So, this house was built back in 1955. So naturally the wiring is good and sturdy I believe… but popping a wall plate this morning… there is no ground on the two prong outlets.

So, I’ll include some pics… but my question is… if I change the outlets to three prong and use the shielded ground wire to the new outlet and attach to the metal housing of the outlet… is that a proper ground?? This is where I am hoping to get some pro advice as I don’t want to assume and end up making a mistake.

One of the outlets…

If it’s a go to ground to the new outlet and the screw in the back of the metal casing… I’d be using this type of ground wire.

Thanks in advance for any help, appreciate you all so much! Thanks again!

 

[philpom]

I'm not an electrician but I am very familiar and comfortable working with it. Unless the electrical system in the house from the 50s has been upgraded at some point its essential a time bomb. There is probably no ground to that box so grounding there will do nothing. Look in the attic or crawl space to see if you can locate any spool insulators. If you find them it's a sure sign the electrical is very old and dangerous. It's $20k-$30k depending to upgrade, my mom just went through the same thing in her house from the early 50s.

 

[Steve H]

It's not a time bomb. This woven cable has some grounding qualities behind it. Did you see a metal film around the sheathing? Often this will lend to a grounded circuit. Is it GFIC level? Usually not. But it'll protect you to some degree. Your best bet. Would be to install a grounded outlet with a wire to the box. as you mentioned. Then test with a outlet tester.

 

[Rafter H BBQ]

I'm not an electrician but I am very familiar and comfortable working with it. Unless the electrical system in the house from the 50s has been upgraded at some point its essential a time bomb. There is probably no ground to that box so grounding there will do nothing. Look in the attic or crawl space to see if you can locate any spool insulators. If you find them it's a sure sign the electrical is very old and dangerous. It's $20k-$30k depending to upgrade, my mom just went through the same thing in her house from the early 50s.

Thank you! Yea, I am sure it’s not cheap to replace… but would try to do the wire pulling myself to help with cost.

 

[Rafter H BBQ]

It's not a time bomb. This woven cable has some grounding qualities behind it. Did you see a metal film around the sheathing? Often this will lend to a grounded circuit. Is it GFIC level? Usually not. But it'll protect you to some degree. Your best bet. Would be to install a grounded outlet with a wire to the box. as you mentioned. Then test with a outlet tester.

Thanks Steve, I didn’t pay much attention to the sheathing… but headed back over in the morning and I can check. What exactly am I looking for? I don’t mean to be dumb, but what do you mean by GFIC level? Sounds good, any tester you’d recommend? Thank you!

 

[chopsaw]

My first house was built in 1955 . 2 prong system . Painted over by the previous owner . I replaced them all with 3 prong .
Mistake .
When I sold the house I had to replace them all with 2 prong as it was built , to bring it back to code for the system .
Personally , I would replace with 2 prong if you need to change them .
Not to go against profesional advice , but something to think about .

My Mom turned 91 today . Just got home from her house . That place needs some work .
Went there to celebrate her birthday , and ended up fixing 2 doors that wouldn't close .

 

[dward51]

Thanks Steve, I didn’t pay much attention to the sheathing… but headed back over in the morning and I can check. What exactly am I looking for? I don’t mean to be dumb, but what do you mean by GFIC level? Sounds good, any tester you’d recommend? Thank you!

Depending on where the house is, you may have to have a city or county permit to rent it. Generally that includes some sort of inspection (but not always). If it has to be inspected they are going to require it be brought up to current electrical standards, the same as a newly built home. That means GFCI (ground fault circuits) and AFCI (arc fault circuits).

Just the GFCI breakers or AFCI breakers alone are pricey. The GFCI can be installed in the first outlet in a "run" and it protects all the outlets that feed from that one and that option is a little less expensive. But you need a good solid ground system throughout the entire house for either to work.

The outlet tester is a simple plug in device. It shows if the wiring is correct and all wires are in place by which LED's light up. I would buy a Klein model (they have several levels of fancy ones, ones that test voltage, GFCI, AFCI, etc...), but this is the most basic type:

If the house is on a basement or crawl space, it may be a DIY project adding proper grounding if you are comfortable with that or have someone local who can advise you. If you are lucky you can just fish that 12 gauge copper ground wire up to each outlet or switch and tie it all back to the breaker box common ground bus.

If the house has glass fuses instead of a more modern breaker box, you are looking at a major upgrade and it's time to talk to an electrician. It may even have the old "knob and tube" type of wiring which can be a real pain (you basically need to upgrade everything if this is what you have). You are getting way beyond a DIY type of project (heck even adding a simple ground wire is probably beyond that).

I will also say this, expect a potential IRS audit the first year you convert a home to a rental. That is what happened to us when we rented my parents home in 2015 after they had passed. I just sold it this past December and they are sitting on my refund so I'm probably getting audited on it again. Keep good records and don't fudge any numbers. We passed the audit and they ended up owing me money the first time. Guess I'll have to wait and see on 2025, but I have all my receipts. It's still a pain in the ass to drive down there on their schedule and hope you don't get some new guy/gal who has no idea. I'm hoping it is just delayed because their website says they have it but have not processed it yet.

 

[dward51]

If you have a volt ohm meter, and you think the outlet wiring sheath has a ground, you can test it with the meter. The meter has enough internal resistance to keep from tripping the breaker or blowing the fuse, but it will read line voltage from the black/hot wire to ground. It should read the same line voltage as it does from the black/hot to the white/neutral wire. And the white/neutral wire should read zero volts to ground.

You don't need a fancy meter and pretty much any $20 one should work. Just make sure it is set for the 200 volt AC range before testing an outlet or switch wiring.

 

[Fueling Around]

The only way I know (by code) to convert to a 3 prong outlet is to find the first outlet in the circuit and install a GFCI receptacle. The rest of the outlets in the same circuit can be regular 3 prong. Don't cheap out and be sure to use spec grade hardware. ALL outlets must be labeled as un grounded. The labels are in each GFCI receptacle box.
Sounds risky, but the GFCI protects for any faults in the appliances plugged into the circuit if you are the ground path.

A house built in the 50's may have many rooms wired on the same circuit. Each room requires a separate GFCI receptacle

Stringing a separate ground wire is nice electrically (if done properly) but still does not meet code.
Code requires all wires in the same sheath

Depending on where the house is, you may have to have a city or county permit to rent it. Generally that includes some sort of inspection (but not always). If it has to be inspected they are going to require it be brought up to current electrical standards, the same as a newly built home. That means GFCI (ground fault circuits) and AFCI (arc fault circuits).
...

Yes, You need to check with your locals for permitting.
The only special I recall from Idaho was a remote external disconnect for power. (Brother (now his widow) lives at Warm River. I supplied all his electrical distribution.

 

[Steve H]

I just read the electrical portion of your question. The meters have been explained well enough. If this is going to be a rental property. Then it should be brought to code. Which means new panel, if required, edison based panels should get replaced with a breaker panel. The service entrance cable will need to get replaced as well. If you're handy. Just have the service entrance cable and panel replaced by a qualified electrician. They'll land the existing runs. And you can replace them as you wish. Is this a single or two story structure? Crawl space or basement?

 

[gmc2003]

Does the house have circuits or fuses?

 

[normanaj]

Having just been through all this my best advice would have been to sell as an "estate sale" which basically means "as is" and let the next owner deal with the issues.For me the decision was easy as the area in which the house was is now very desirable,the NY'ers have been snapping up RI properties at a record pace over the past few years and I got decent $ for that place.

But I guess the above point is moot as you've decided to rent.I'm not an electrician but have been painting houses for 35 years everything from historic restos to brand new construction and I've seen many times what goes into a full project.When it comes to electricity save money where you can but in the end the best route is to get a qualified electrician in there especially since you will be going the rental route.

 

[Coreymacc]

Installing a ground to the box won't do anything unless the box is bonded. Grounded outlets are code but you have to affix a decal that says " not grounded " or something. Then its code. Silly a sticker is a code requirement but .

Corey

 

[Gonna Smoke]

I am sure it’s not cheap to replace

It's $20k-$30k depending to upgrade

I asked my son what he charges for a complete upgrade of a house like this to bring it up to code and he said that if it has a crawlspace and attic, $15-$20/sq. ft. just to give you another idea of what the cost would be if taking this route, but that doesn't include demo of old systems. His business is in Charleston and he does quite a bit of these kinds of remods even though he much prefers new construction or remods where the walls are opened up...

 

[Gonna Smoke]

He said that for rental property, it will have to be inspected and brought up to code, at least that's the way it is here in SC. Whatever you do, DO NOT open up the walls because if you do, you may be required to fix anything that's not up to code such as plumbing, framing, etc. He has a project that's been pushed back to October for this very reason...

 

[gmc2003]

He said that for rental property, it will have to be inspected and brought up to code, at least that's the way it is here in SC. Whatever you do, DO NOT open up the walls because if you do, you may be required to fix anything that's not up to code such as plumbing, framing, etc. He has a project that's been pushed back to October for this very reason...

Not to mention lead paint.

Chris

 

[normanaj]

Another thing to consider is that as a rental property the insurance company will order an inspection.

 

[Steve H]

Another thing to consider is that as a rental property the insurance company will order an inspection.

Usually for safety reasons. Which will almost certainly require hardwired smoke alarms. If you don't have an attic. Have fun with that one.

 

[Fueling Around]

I forgot about the rental bit.
I doubt the GFCI receptacle change out I posted earlier will pass requirements for a rental.
Between the Insurance Company and the local Inspectors they are going to make your head spin with the circle dance to satisfy their individual requirements.

I have seen a lot of older units use surface raceway (Wiremold) for receptacles and smoke alarms.

 

[dward51]

Not to mention lead paint.

Chris

Or asbestos!!!!! Never know what you find once you start looking.