Prague Powder #1

[jjp1991]

What else did you put in the brine?

I used this recipe and substituted cure #1 where it called for salt. 

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/beef-pastrami-recipe2.html

 

[jjp1991]

Who came with this 10% pickup ratio? I saw it in a lot of places. If that's how much nitrite the meat picks up how do weak brines like pop's still work?

Check out this link.  It includes the text below that I've pasted in.  Based on this my 3.5 gallon brine using 14oz of cure #1 has 4oz/gallon which is below the maximum in the table, or 1lb vs 1.08lbs for a comparable 4 gallon brine which is also calculated in the text below.  

Let me know what you think.  Thx

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-making/curing

Immersed, Pumped and Massaged Products  such as hams, poultry breasts, corned beef. Here, it is much harder to come up with a universal formula as there are so many variables that have to be determined first. The main factor is to determine % pump when injecting the meat with a syringe or % pick-up when immersing meat in a curing solution. We will calculate the formula for 1 gallon of water, Cure #1 and 10% pick-up gain. Then the formula can be multiplied or divided to accommodate different amounts of meat. 10% pump or 10% pick-up mean that the cured meat should absorb 10% of the brine in relation to its original weight. For immersion, pumped or massaged products, the maximum in-going nitrite limit is 200 ppm and that corresponds to adding 4.2 oz of Cure #1 to 1 gallon of water.

Amount	Cure #1 in ounces	Cure #1 in grams	Cure #1 in teaspoons
1 gallon (8.33 lbs) of water	4.2	120	20 (6 Tbs)

This is a very small amount of brine and if you want to cure a large turkey you will need to increase the volume. Just multiply it by a factor of 4 and you will have 4 gallons of water and 1.08 lbs. of Cure #1. The following is the safe formula for immersed products and very easy to measure: 5 gallons of water, 1 lb. of Cure #1. In the above formula at 10% pick-up the nitrite limit is 150 ppm which is plenty. Keep in mind that adding 1 lb. of Cure #1 to 5 gallons of water will give you 4.2% salt by weight and that corresponds to only 16 degrees brine (slightly higher than sea water). If we add an additional 2 lbs. of salt we will get: 5 gallons of water, 1 lb. of Cure #1, 2 lbs. of salt and that will give us a 25 degree solution which is great for poultry.

 

[jjp1991]

Who came with this 10% pickup ratio? I saw it in a lot of places. If that's how much nitrite the meat picks up how do weak brines like pop's still work?

Pops recipe includes salt and cure#1.  For the salt, I substituted cure#1, which is over 90% salt.  The nominal difference is in the amount of nitrate.  Looks like the bigger difference is the cost.  I would have saved money by following pops. Live and learn. 

Let me know what you think. 

 

[diggingdogfarm]

If you can tell me exactly what you used in the brine (that's dissoluble)...I can answer your questions.

14 ounces of cure #1 and 3 gallons of water...correct?
2-1/4 cups of brown sugar?
No other salt...correct?

 

[jjp1991]

If you can tell me exactly what you used in the brine (that's dissoluble)...I can answer your questions.

14 ounces of cure #1 and 3 gallons of water...correct?
2-1/4 cups of brown sugar?
No other salt...correct?

3.5 gallons water

2 5/8 brown sugar

14 oz cure#1

3/4 cup of salt (in addition to the cure since the recipe called for 2 5/8 cups of salt for 3.5 gallons and the cure was less than two cups)

thanks

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Okay, here's how an immersion brine is checked for ingoing nitrite (it's important to remember that only a portion of the cure is absorbed into the meat.)

Weight of the Nitrite x Percentage of Brine Pick-Up x 1,000,000 ÷ Total Weight of the Brine = PPM Nitrite

14 ounces of cure #1...that's 397 grams.
3.5 gallons of water, that's 13249 grams
2-5/8 cups brown sugar...that's ~630 grams
3/4 cup of salt... that's ~180 grams salt.

Weight of the Nitrite: 397 grams of Cure #1 x 6.25%=. 24.8 grams Nitrite
Total Weight of the Brine=14456 grams

At 10% Pick-Up....
24.8 x 10% x 1,000,000=2480000
2480000÷14456=171.55 PPM Nitrite


At 10% pick-up, it's within the 200PPM government limit used by many folks as a measure of safety.

If you can tell me exactly what you used in the brine (that's dissoluble)...I can answer your questions.


14 ounces of cure #1 and 3 gallons of water...correct?

2-1/4 cups of brown sugar?

No other salt...correct?

3.5 gallons water

2 5/8 brown sugar
14 oz cure#1
3/4 cup of salt (in addition to the cure since the recipe called for 2 5/8 cups of salt for 3.5 gallons and the cure was less than two cups)

thanks

 

[jjp1991]

Okay, here's how an immersion brine is checked for safety in terms of nitrite level (it's important to remember that only a portion of the cure is absorbed into the meat.)

Weight of the Nitrite x Percentage of Brine Pick-Up x 1,000,000 ÷ Total Weight of the Brine = PPM Nitrite

14 ounces of cure #1...that's 397 grams.
3.5 gallons of water, that's 13249 grams
2-5/8 cups brown sugar...that's ~630 grams
3/4 cup of salt... that's ~180 grams salt.

Weight of the Nitrite: 397 grams of Cure #1 x 6.25%=. 24.8 grams Nitrite
Total Weight of the Brine=14456 grams

At 10% Pick-Up....
24.8 x 10% x 1,000,000=2480000
2480000÷14456=171.55 PPM Nitrite


At 10% pick-up, it's within the 200PPM government limit used by many folks as a measure of safety.

Great.  Thanks.  I really appreciate the info and the formula.  Hopefully the pastrami tastes good too!

 

[atomicsmoke]

Pops recipe includes salt and cure#1.  For the salt, I substituted cure#1, which is over 90% salt.  The nominal difference is in the amount of nitrate.  Looks like the bigger difference is the cost.  I would have saved money by following pops. Live and learn. 

Let me know what you think. 

You can't replace salt with cure#1 1:1.

 

[atomicsmoke]

Diggingdogfarm,

Why 10% pickup here but not for pop's brine?

We have two recipes meant to do same thing yet one is using 6x as much cure. Which one is wrong?

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Oh boy, here we go!!! :biggrin:

 

[diggingdogfarm]

I'll let Pops answer questions about his brine.

 

[timberjet]

I am glad it fell within safety limits. I just didn't want anyone sick. Thanks Martin for the Info. I think I will stick with pops brine though.

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Diggingdogfarm,

Why 10% pickup here but not for pop's brine?

We have two recipes meant to do same thing yet one is using 6x as much cure. Which one is wrong?

What makes you think that one of them is wrong and in what way?

 

[jjp1991]

Diggingdogfarm,

Why 10% pickup here but not for pop's brine?

We have two recipes meant to do same thing yet one is using 6x as much cure. Which one is wrong?

This is from pops recipe. It notes that the maximum is ~4 oz per gallon.  His recipe just uses a lesser amount.  Hope this helps.  

First, let me make an important distinction:  the one "special" ingredient you use is a curing salt.  This is 93.75% plain salt, and 6.25% sodium nitrite. You are allowed a maximum of 3.84 oz. of curing salt per gallon of brine by USDA Standards..  I use 1 oz. per gallon, well under maximum strength.  When I say "full strength" brine i mean to my standard of 1 oz./gallon, not maximum strength.  My dad tested and tested his brine to find out what would work to get the job done but not to over-cure the meat.  He found a 1 oz/gal. mix was more than sufficient with a longer curing time to cure the meat.  This provides more flexibility in curing, you can leave any product up to 45 days in the brine safely, and don't risk over-curing anything which can be harmful to deadly.  

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Before this thread gets completely out-of-hand.....as I said above...if you want to accurately determine the
ingoing amount of nitrite (that's what's important) in an immersion cured product...you must use the formula above.
You can apply the formula to ANY immersion brine.

 

[atomicsmoke]

What makes you think that one of them is wrong and in what way?

One uses 1tbs (20 something grams) of cure per gallon the other one uses 130g (14oz/3).

 

[diggingdogfarm]

There are countless brines that are all over the place in terms of ingredients.

What's your point?

 

[atomicsmoke]

There are countless brines that are all over the place in terms of ingredients.

What's your point?

Your calculations show 172ppm meat nitrite level for the cure the OP used. Pop's will give 120ppm meat nitrite level, about 30% less, yet it uses 6x less curing salt.

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Again, you need to use the formula above....the amount of cure #1 per gallon tells you NOTHING in terms of INGOING nitrite.

 

[atomicsmoke]

Again, you need to use the formula above....the amount of cure #1 per gallon tells you NOTHING in terms of INGOING nitrite.

Yep...using that formula pops brine gives 27ppm, not 120. Yet I understand it made the G-men happy so it's got to be at 120ppm.

Your formula uses the 10% pickup "ratio". Where is that coming from?