Need some ITC-106VH PID tuning help please SOLVED

[kilohertz]

I'm back tuning a new PID for my super insulated MES30 Digital. I couldn't get the REX-c100 tuned properly, the box is too damn well insulated, so I am trying my Inkbird ITC-106VH. I also installed a new RTD pt-100 sensor permanently in the back wall about 2/3 way up from the bottom, I insulated the probe from the cabinet inner wall with heat shrink to eliminate thermal coupling to the cabinet.

I need to know from someone who knows what the PID P parameter units are. Are they degrees, a percentage of the 0-9999 range or what? I know I and D are in seconds, seems some PIDs have P in degrees, some are in gain - K some in percentage.

When doing just P tuning with I and D at 0 I'm not seeing any power pulsing off until it gets to within 3 or 4 degrees of SV then it overshoots 10*. I have tried P=10, P=50, no difference. What's this one use?

Thanks

 

[tallbm]

I'm back tuning a new PID for my super insulated MES30 Digital. I couldn't get the REX-c100 tuned properly, the box is too damn well insulated, so I am trying my Inkbird ITC-106VH. I also installed a new RTD pt-100 sensor permanently in the back wall about 2/3 way up from the bottom, I insulated the probe from the cabinet inner wall with heat shrink to eliminate thermal coupling to the cabinet.

I need to know from someone who knows what the PID P parameter units are. Are they degrees, a percentage of the 0-9999 range or what? I know I and D are in seconds, seems some PIDs have P in degrees, some are in gain - K some in percentage.

When doing just P tuning with I and D at 0 I'm not seeing any power pulsing off until it gets to within 3 or 4 degrees of SV then it overshoots 10*. I have tried P=10, P=50, no difference. What's this one use?

Thanks

No idea what it uses but an overshoot of 10 isn't too bad.
I understand wanting to nail it but anytime I've run into a bit of an unwanted overshoot I just lower my set temp so when it overshoots it hits my REAL desired temp and then I go and pump up the set temp to my desired/real set temp hahaha.

Example. If you overshoot 10F and you want to smoke at 275F then set to 265F and when it overshoots to 275F go up the set temp to 275F and boom no more overshoot and it holds :D

 

[kilohertz]

Thanks,

I'm giving up on PID tuning the insulated digital smoker, the thermal time constant is too long to get a PID to work in the low temp 130-160 smoking range. I'll tune it for higher temp 225-275 big meat smokes and use the Analog MES for bacon and sausage etc. which I have tuned perfectly, it's not insulated and leaks enough heat to tune a PID.

I'm waiting for a reply from Inkbird and if I get something I'll post it here.

Cheers

 

[JC in GB]

P = proportional gain it is a straight multiplication of signal error

I = Integral gain is averaged out over time to eliminate spikes

D = Derivative gain is like having a secondary high gain proportional stage

Not sure what issues you are having doing an Autotune with the REX C-100. I have never had an issue doing an autotune.

You can also input your own PID parameters. If I had to make a cold guess, I would set my PID to P = 30 I = 100 D = 5

Lastly, maybe try to tune your rig to 250 degrees even if you will be running at 160. The autotune measures temp rise over time and setting the tune to 160 may not give you enough data over time to tune the PID.

Hope this helps some.

JC

 

[kilohertz]

Thanks guys!

Another morning of mucking about with the PID tuning, thankfully I am off this week and only have weeding and yard cleanup and house renos to do, but this is more fun.

I partly loaded it up with jalapeno peppers this morning got it up to 150* then started the auto tune cycle set for 160* and went to town. I was watching on my my cel throughout the day and it never did settle down, cycled about 30 minutes between peaks. I know it's okay for big meat but I would like to get it closer for sausage and bacon, I'd like to see less than 5* OS/US.

In the temp graph you can see after it peaks, it looks like it will be good, nice flat area, then it starts to drop, then big OS and it repeats, there is a nice stable area in there but it just won't hold. The autotune values came back at P-18, I-142 and D-28. Yesterday I tried various settings starting with just P-1, then P-10 then P-100 all with I and D = 0, it didn't make a hill of beans difference. One thing I discovered today in my messing with it, an some of you might find this useful for this PID, when it's up and running in auto PID mode, if you push the SET button, A shows on the left and on the right is the current % output the PID has calculated, a lot easier than counting seconds on/off.

I'm going to continue this afternoon until the peppers are dehydrated or I run out of beer, whichever comes first.

Here are the graphs, temp in the first and power on/off cycles from my energy monitor (ignore the below baseline power, that's my solar system driving the grid negative). You can see the power starts off narrow pulses, then ramps up to full power, then it overshoots, then the pulses start tapering off, after the temp peaks. I think this is backwards. Shouldn't it start out at full power and taper off as it approaches SV? This one starts out pulsing, then gets to full poop just before SV is reached, like within less than 1*. I have 2 other brand new identical PIDs, maybe this one is FUBAR. It's a royal pain to change them out though, I'd like to figure out what's wrong with this one. The meat temp is a Maverick type meat probe and the smoker TC is a type K 2 wire, both boil tested and calibrated at 212F.

Any thoughts or guidance greatly appreciated, especially if you have played with the Inkbird stuff. I had the REX C-100 working perfectly in the MES analog which is double wall but not insulated, I had it ramp up from cold and OS 1* then settle back rock solid at whatever temp I wanted, except it would barely get to 200* no matter how long I waited. It's going to be my low temp smoker.

Cheers

 

[kilohertz]

PS here is what I received from Inkbird. They said to use the ITC-100 manual for the technical descriptions of values etc. It still doesn't answer my question of "what are the units of P" in the PID formula, degrees? percentage of full range? percentage of ?? or ???

 

[dr k]

With Auber P mode is temp in degrees and it's relationship to set point of 1 or higher (0 = on/off controller.) P=7, I=0 and D=0 and set to 250 is seven degrees below set temp the controller is full power at 243* 7/7=1, 6 degrees is pulsing 6/7, then 5/7 down to 1/7, then off at set temp 0/7=0. This is in our manual. Large packer brisket I do P=1, I=0 and D=0 and everything is about the P value and how many degrees below set point before it comes out of full power on the way up. With P=1 is full power getting to set temp as fast as possible with a heavy load and may over shoot a little so I set temp 10 degrees lower. When it carries over to my desired cooking temp I reset the controller to that temp. It's on the way down I want the fastest response. One degree below set temp is full power 1/1=1, .5 degree below set temp is .5/1 = 50% pulsing, then off at set temp. When off and cooling I want 50% power the max response to start heating at 1/2 degree below set temp (even though it displays in ones resolution) to not under coast as much and full power at 1 degree below to recover in the first few cycles. Once you put variableS in I and D you will not be P=exact full power below set temp. Because I and D are in seconds. So you may come out of full power 28 degrees below set temp on the way up with variables > 0. I won't wait 2 hours to get to set temp with a heavy cold load at 265 set temp so I do P mode and after cycles are within a few degrees then switch P=3 or so, I=208 and D=210. Even Auber PID's are different from another. The bradley smoker PID out of the box setting is P=70, I= 600 and D=150. Those of us with the WS-1510ELPM Auber is P=7, I=600 and D = 150. So mine is the true degree below set temp in P mode and I guess the bradley P=70 you need to divide the P value by 10 to get 7. I have a chart from Auber to run steam tables, turn rice cookers and slow cookers into sous vide but its for the bradley controller and they just said divide the P column by 10 to get the correct P value for mine.

 

[kilohertz]

Thanks Kurt, really appreciate the explanation. The Auber sounds like it operates much the same as the REX C-100 and other "normal" consumer grade PIDs, which is what I am used to and have programmed before and had success with.

I went back thru my notes and forgot about my other thread about getting my new MES30 Digital and realized I had it pretty well setup when I first converted it to PID, to the stock MES. Then I started modding it eliminate the hot spots, put in the top smoke stack, added the toolbox mod etc. Then I decided that some copper to pickup more heat to the TC would speed up the response of the TC so I machined a plug to thread the TC into an soldered on a sheet of copper. Then I added a perf aluminum tray to the bottom rack to make the heat dissipation even. Then I tried retuning the box and couldn't get it to work at all, it sucked....so I put in the Inkbird ITC-106VH which I had for my homebrew brewing setup and an RTD pt-100 sensor which are supposed to be more accurate, that didn't work at all, could not get it to cycle at all with P from 1 to 1000 and anywhere in between. I asked Inkbird what the units of P were as it didn't behave like it was degrees, they sent this back to me.

University and calculus and integrating formulas was over 40 years ago..great.

So this afternoon after discovering on Amazon, in the description for the ITC-106, that it is not suitable for air processes, it is meant for liquid processes, use the ITC-100 for air, ovens etc. ....mmmm different algorithms I guess, I removed the Inkbird and put back the REX- C-100. But what I also did was research thermocouple responses and found my thinking was all wrong, which I based on my years of amplifier design and building. Thermocouples are all about mass, the smaller and lighter, the faster the response, especially in air. So, back to the K TC and off came the copper sleeve and fin, I even removed the nut which was meant to hold it in a well, I made a sleeve out of UHMW and put it in the 1/4" hole left by the RTD sensor and pushed it into the cabinet so it had about 1.5" into the cabinet, and put everything back together, entered my old values from the last time it was working well before all the box mods, and bloody hell, I got it tracking perfectly within an hour.

Although it took a few days of mucking around, I learned a hell of a lot about thermodynamics, my jalapenos are just about dehydrated as they were my "load" and I am ready for the weekends smoking sessions, pastrami, ribs and maybe some sausage.

I hope this helps someone else in the future.

Cheers

 

[tallbm]

Thanks Kurt, really appreciate the explanation. The Auber sounds like it operates much the same as the REX C-100 and other "normal" consumer grade PIDs, which is what I am used to and have programmed before and had success with.

I went back thru my notes and forgot about my other thread about getting my new MES30 Digital and realized I had it pretty well setup when I first converted it to PID, to the stock MES. Then I started modding it eliminate the hot spots, put in the top smoke stack, added the toolbox mod etc. Then I decided that some copper to pickup more heat to the TC would speed up the response of the TC so I machined a plug to thread the TC into an soldered on a sheet of copper. Then I added a perf aluminum tray to the bottom rack to make the heat dissipation even. Then I tried retuning the box and couldn't get it to work at all, it sucked....so I put in the Inkbird ITC-106VH which I had for my homebrew brewing setup and an RTD pt-100 sensor which are supposed to be more accurate, that didn't work at all, could not get it to cycle at all with P from 1 to 1000 and anywhere in between. I asked Inkbird what the units of P were as it didn't behave like it was degrees, they sent this back to me.

View attachment 673219

University and calculus and integrating formulas was over 40 years ago..great.

So this afternoon after discovering on Amazon, in the description for the ITC-106, that it is not suitable for air processes, it is meant for liquid processes, use the ITC-100 for air, ovens etc. ....mmmm different algorithms I guess, I removed the Inkbird and put back the REX- C-100. But what I also did was research thermocouple responses and found my thinking was all wrong, which I based on my years of amplifier design and building. Thermocouples are all about mass, the smaller and lighter, the faster the response, especially in air. So, back to the K TC and off came the copper sleeve and fin, I even removed the nut which was meant to hold it in a well, I made a sleeve out of UHMW and put it in the 1/4" hole left by the RTD sensor and pushed it into the cabinet so it had about 1.5" into the cabinet, and put everything back together, entered my old values from the last time it was working well before all the box mods, and bloody hell, I got it tracking perfectly within an hour.

Although it took a few days of mucking around, I learned a hell of a lot about thermodynamics, my jalapenos are just about dehydrated as they were my "load" and I am ready for the weekends smoking sessions, pastrami, ribs and maybe some sausage.

I hope this helps someone else in the future.

Cheers

Wow nice find!

So moral of the story, ITC-106VH PID = bad, because it is meant for liquid processes (brewing) not air processes (smokers/ovens).

Use a PID designed for air processes (smokers/ovens) like the ITC-100, or a different brand like REX-100, Auber, MyPin, etc. etc.

I'm glad you figured it out because I was kind of baffled as to why it wouldn't work but yeah the algorithm just wasn't meant for air so no telling what kind of funky numbers you would have needed to make it work, if you could have at all lol.

Good solve and info :D

 

[kilohertz]

And I can confirm the Rex C 100 has been running perfect although I’ve been tweaking it for the last four hours while I’m cooking ribs and beans in the smoker, I figured out all the parameters and it really makes a difference, depending on what your setpoint is as to the parameters. Setting parameters for 180° are completely different from 250°.

I just wrapped the ribs in foil closed all the vents and turned it up to 275° going to let that run for a few hours. Hope I can stay awake that long.

I have it tracking within 1° now, and I’m extremely happy with my results, I really love playing with this stuff, it’s the science nerd inside of me coming out and making some delicious food as a result.

For some of you, this might be boring but for me, it gives me joy, figuring out this stuff, I’m an electronics tech by trade, but I’ve been digging dirt for the last eight years to make money, this gives my brain something to do. I’ll post my results in the next few days. Hopefully it will benefit other people who follow in my footsteps.

Of course the ultimate goal is to make good eats, I’ve already gained 10 pounds since I joined this forum in December 2022. Between bacon, sausage, ribs, brisket, etc., I might have to sell the snowblower and shovel the driveway by hand this year to keep the weight down. Ha ha. Also, I am now up to five smokers, two gas grills, an offset stick burner and a water smoker, I think I’ll have to remove the hot tub to make room for more.

More later.

Cheers

The front 1/3 deck

 

[dr k]

The Auber WS-1510ELPM comes with one of two RTD PT-100 sensors. One is a flat wire for Sous Vide only and the other is for multi use smoker or Sous Vide. You have to select one at checkout. Let us know how P mode is now. I use it for higher temp 260 ish for brisket, butts and ribs and full PID for starting at 135 and ramping every hour for cased sausage, fish and creating a draft in winter 20 degrees above ambient to cold smoke bacons, cheeses, peeled hardboiled eggs, burgers precooked smoked sausages etc. I had to cull my small stick burner due to corrosion over it's long life and I donated my large brinkmann charcoal grill to a friend when I got a large Kamado. So the Kamado and a Mes 30 with stock controller since it surprisingly is accurate with a ten degree over'under coasting and the Mes 40 with PID.

 

[kilohertz]

Hi Kurt et al,

After my extensive research and playing with the PIDs for the last few days, I think I can confirm the REX C-100 operates the same, or very close to the Auber. P is actually real degrees and I and D are in seconds. P, besides being in degrees for easy setup, in commercial systems is also "gain", and the lower the number, the higher the gain and the more aggressive the response is to changes. I however found that it didn't seem to matter what P was, if I and D=0 then the output doesn't start pulsing until very close to SV. If you have a value of I of say 50 and P=10, THEN it will start pulsing 10* below SV and continue shortening the pulses until it reaches SV. I started with P=5 and I=10 just to get the pulsing above/below SV. If I made P bigger, ie less gain, then the pulses were shorter and it took longer to get to SV. (set value) As I value gets bigger, the pulses seemed to be shorter and it took longer to get to SV but didn't overshoot. If you made P bigger it had the same effect, took longer to get to temp. I ended up at a set temp of 250*, P=10 I=50 and D of 220. As I mentioned in an earlier post, these values change depending on set temp. I started at 130* and had a bloody hard time getting anything to work properly but eventually got it. I think I ended up with P=20 I=400 and D=260, trying to keep the well insulated box at a steady low temp is hard, there isn't enough heat loss for the algorithms to work properly.

I will expand more on this later, it's been a long day, ready for bed.

Cheers

 

[tallbm]

Hi Kurt et al,

After my extensive research and playing with the PIDs for the last few days, I think I can confirm the REX C-100 operates the same, or very close to the Auber. P is actually real degrees and I and D are in seconds. P, besides being in degrees for easy setup, in commercial systems is also "gain", and the lower the number, the higher the gain and the more aggressive the response is to changes. I however found that it didn't seem to matter what P was, if I and D=0 then the output doesn't start pulsing until very close to SV. If you have a value of I of say 50 and P=10, THEN it will start pulsing 10* below SV and continue shortening the pulses until it reaches SV. I started with P=5 and I=10 just to get the pulsing above/below SV. If I made P bigger, ie less gain, then the pulses were shorter and it took longer to get to SV. (set value) As I value gets bigger, the pulses seemed to be shorter and it took longer to get to SV but didn't overshoot. If you made P bigger it had the same effect, took longer to get to temp. I ended up at a set temp of 250*, P=10 I=50 and D of 220. As I mentioned in an earlier post, these values change depending on set temp. I started at 130* and had a bloody hard time getting anything to work properly but eventually got it. I think I ended up with P=20 I=400 and D=260, trying to keep the well insulated box at a steady low temp is hard, there isn't enough heat loss for the algorithms to work properly.

I will expand more on this later, it's been a long day, ready for bed.

Cheers

In the MES I found best PID response times with the probe on the underside of the lowest rack. I also have my element directly exposed so no metal in the way to deflect heat around the probes.

Finding the fastest/most responsive spot for your PID temp probe helps a ton with your PID being able to effectively manage temps in an MES.

I've found this to work with 3 different PIDS (Auber, MyPin, and HeaterMeter) so this may be another area to explore with your new setup. More tinkering fun :D

 

[smokysteve]

Can any of you guys that are familiar with REX C-100 tell me, does it retain its settings from previous runs? Does what it learns from auto tune remain in a memory or do I reset everytime I turn it on. Just getting started is why I ask. Thanks.

 

[kilohertz]

Can any of you guys that are familiar with REX C-100 tell me, does it retain its settings from previous runs? Does what it learns from auto tune remain in a memory or do I reset everytime I turn it on. Just getting started is why I ask. Thanks.

It keeps the last entered entries or tuning in memory, no need to reset each time.

cheers