Is there a point to dry curing sausage?

[iburnedit]

I have been going crazy with smoking/drying sausage since i bought my commercial grinder and sausage stuffer. I finally fine tuned my recipe for landjaeger. So far i have tried hog and sheep casing, but i am realling liking the 17mm mahogany collagen casings. I am using obviously salt, cure#1 "spices" and Fermento. I followed a recipe for 100F for two hours of smoke, 120F for 12 hours in a commercial dehydrator, then check the test link for weight loss and looking for 30-40% weight loss, if not reached, crank to 140F and check every 15-30 minutes. When reached, let sit overnight in the fridge.

OMG is it good. Better then even the store bought high end landjaegers.

So why even bother with a longer humidity controlled fermented dry cure?

This is a serious question because as much as i want to get into dry curing, taste wise, my taste buds are telling me there is no good reason to spend money on a temp/humidity controlled setup.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

I have been going crazy with smoking/drying sausage since i bought my commercial grinder and sausage stuffer. I finally fine tuned my recipe for landjaeger. So far i have tried hog and sheep casing, but i am realling liking the 17mm mahogany collagen casings. I am using obviously salt, cure#1 "spices" and Fermento. I followed a recipe for 100F for two hours of smoke, 120F for 12 hours in a commercial dehydrator, then check the test link for weight loss and looking for 30-40% weight loss, if not reached, crank to 140F and check every 15-30 minutes. When reached, let sit overnight in the fridge.

OMG is it good. Better then even the store bought high end landjaegers.

So why even bother with a longer humidity controlled fermented dry cure?

This is a serious question because as much as i want to get into dry curing, taste wise, my taste buds are telling me there is no good reason to spend money on a temp/humidity controlled setup.

Traditional LJ are dry cured with cure #2

What your making is a non shelf stable cure 1 LJ thats normally smoked. More like a fancy slim jim using fermento. Fermento is not a fermenting agent.

Here is some cure 2 info.
Cure # 2 contains sodium nitrite for immediate protection as well as sodium nitrate which acts as a time release, breaking down into sodium nitrite, then nitric oxide thus allowing for the much longer curing times required for these products, which can be up to 6 months. Dry curing meat or sausage properly cannot be done with Cure #1 which contains sodium nitrite only and dissipates too quickly.

 

[iburnedit]

Traditional LJ are dry cured with cure #2

What your making is a non shelf stable cure 1 LJ thats normally smoked. More like a fancy slim jim using fermento. Fermento is not a fermenting agent.

Here is some cure 2 info.
Cure # 2 contains sodium nitrite for immediate protection as well as sodium nitrate which acts as a time release, breaking down into sodium nitrite, then nitric oxide thus allowing for the much longer curing times required for these products, which can be up to 6 months. Dry curing meat or sausage properly cannot be done with Cure #1 which contains sodium nitrite only and dissipates too quickly.

Thanks for the respond and helpful information. May i pick your brain a bit? I have some questions regarding cure#2.

Would i be able to use cure#2 in place of cure#1 with my same method for a longer shelf life, or what about a 1:1 mix of both cure#1 and cure#2 for a longer shelf life? It seems at least from reading up that they basicly use the same amount which is roughly 1 tsp per 5lbs of meat.

Also, i used your easy peazy LJ recipe as a starting point and really wanted to ask you about a what you meant by this line:

1/2 tsp cure #1 (You can use cure #2 but you will have a very hard LJ link)

Are you saying that using the same method cure#2 will make the LJ's harder? What i mean by this is 15% weight loss is somewhat soft, but 30- 40% is harder. So are you saying at 15% weight loss using cure#2 instead of cure#1 will be harder?

Thanks in advance

 

[atomicsmoke]

The sausage you talked about is cooked. Proper dry cured sausages are not cooked.

Very different texture and taste.

 

[iburnedit]

Not much difference at low temps like 120F. Its not hot enough to cook the fat out, but enough to speed up the drying process. I have had dry cured sausages and using the methods i described above, i can not notice much difference in taste or texture.

 

[daveomak]

At 120 F, you've killed all the good bacteria that turn sugars into lactic acid, which helps preserve the meat... along with salt and nitrates and nitrites...

https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/safety-hurdles

....

 

[iburnedit]

Well, 12 hours at 120F reduced to 30-40% weight loss, been in the fridge for over a week, we have eaten about 2 of the 5 pounds i made. Nobody has got sick. If that temp is good enough for Alton brown, and Kutas, its good enough for me.

 

[iburnedit]

Heres a few pics of my end product. I just took these pics.

 

[atomicsmoke]

Not much difference at low temps like 120F. Its not hot enough to cook the fat out, but enough to speed up the drying process. I have had dry cured sausages and using the methods i described above, i can not notice much difference in taste or texture.

I respectfully disagree. While not fully cooked meat held at for 12h at 120F tastes/feels nothing like dry cured sausage. After all 120F is the temp of rare steak.

But If it tastes the same to you no point in going thru the trouble of dry curing.

 

[iburnedit]

Well i did mention raising the temp to 140F at the end to get that weight loss to 30-40%. So in reality, it is fully cooked. I just choose to fully cook it at the end. To each their own. I am very happy with the results. If i wasn't i would have not made this thread in the first place. I am really looking forward to Nepas responce to my question about using cure#2

By the way, i just want to throw this out there.... I like my steaks cooked to 132F, but there is a lot of people who use sous vide to cook and hold there steaks at 120F for upwards of 24 hours or more.

 

[daveomak]

The title of the thread ????
Is there a point to dry curing sausage?

I'm guessing that wasn't really a question....



...

 

[atomicsmoke]

Thanks for the respond and helpful information. May i pick your brain a bit? I have some questions regarding cure#2.

Would i be able to use cure#2 in place of cure#1 with my same method for a longer shelf life, or what about a 1:1 mix of both cure#1 and cure#2 for a longer shelf life? It seems at least from reading up that they basicly use the same amount which is roughly 1 tsp per 5lbs of meat.

Also, i used your easy peazy LJ recipe as a starting point and really wanted to ask you about a what you meant by this line:

Are you saying that using the same method cure#2 will make the LJ's harder? What i mean by this is 15% weight loss is somewhat soft, but 30- 40% is harder. So are you saying at 15% weight loss using cure#2 instead of cure#1 will be harder?

Thanks in advance

Nornally you don't cook sausage cured with #2. Like Dave said, cooking it will kill bacteria. To convert nitrates from #2 to nitrites (which are responsible for curing/protection) you need bacteria, curing temps and time. By simply swapping #1 with #2 in your current process you still lack alll three elements above.

You don't seem to have a good grasp on the concept of air dry curing. Read up from the masters here (nepas is one of the poster boys) before attempting it.

 

[iburnedit]

Nornally you don't cook sausage cured with #2. Like Dave said, cooking it will kill bacteria. To convert nitrates from #2 to nitrites (which are responsible for curing/protection) you need bacteria, curing temps and time. By simply swapping #1 with #2 in your current process you still lack alll three elements above.

You don't seem to have a good grasp on the concept of air dry curing. Read up from the masters here (nepas is one of the poster boys) before attempting it.

I grasp it. I just don't see a point to dry cure (at least with LJ's) I had been buying them for years until i finally starting making my own. And to be honest, mine are just as good, if not better. This whole time i had thought this could only be achieved by building a dedicated humidity/temp controlled curing chamber. After my last test results, im convinced its not needed.
At first i cringed at the thought of 120F for 12 hours, but then i thought to myself, there's salt, there's cure, if its good enough for beef jerky, its good enough for freshly ground whole muscle beef/pork.

I really wish Nepas would chime in about what he posted about using cure#2 as he never specified a different method, only saying cure#2 will have a very hard LJ.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

Thanks for the respond and helpful information. May i pick your brain a bit? I have some questions regarding cure#2.

Would i be able to use cure#2 in place of cure#1 with my same method for a longer shelf life, or what about a 1:1 mix of both cure#1 and cure#2 for a longer shelf life? It seems at least from reading up that they basicly use the same amount which is roughly 1 tsp per 5lbs of meat.

Also, i used your easy peazy LJ recipe as a starting point and really wanted to ask you about a what you meant by this line:

Are you saying that using the same method cure#2 will make the LJ's harder? What i mean by this is 15% weight loss is somewhat soft, but 30- 40% is harder. So are you saying at 15% weight loss using cure#2 instead of cure#1 will be harder?

Thanks in advance

Never mix cure 1 & 2 together for a sausage or charcuterie item. You need to use one or the other and never mix either with MTQ.

Yes using cure 2 will make for a harder type sausage and longer shelf life. The longer you leave your cure 2 LJ out the harder they will get.

Traditional LJ use lactic acid culture, spice and sodium nitrite. In the old days they used potassium nitrate

Using cure 1 you will have a limited shelf life between 10-14 days before they start to spoil. Kept vac sealed in the fridge your cure 1 LJ will last around 5-6 months. LJ in German is hunters sausage. Meant to be in your pocket or pack with no refrigeration. Keep in mind that once you open the vac sealed cure 1 LJ you have about a week in the fridge before moisture will make them start to turn nasty tasting.... Open vac bag, take few out and re vac seal. or wrap in freezer paper and freeze.

Let me say this again
Never mix cure 1 & 2 together for a meat item = Nitrate poisoning.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

Ok here is my take on it.

120* is to hot for any dry cured product.

What you made is more like a smoked sausage that has been reduced in weight by heat. Also 120* for 12 hours using cure 1 is way to long thus promoting listeria.

Here is a tip if your wanting a dry style smoked sausage.
Use a mix of Trehalose and ECA. This is called a smooth acid blend and safe for heat when smoking. The taste and tang of dry cure without the fermenting. And have a shelf stable product.

 

[iburnedit]

What am i replacing with this mix of Trehalose and ECA? What is ECA? 50/50 mix? Still use cure#1 and Fermento?

 

[BGKYSmoker]

I use at times the smooth acid blend. Do not use this if your not up on fermented (Style) sausage.

May i suggest you read up on fermenting. This is not rocket science, but not processed right could make you a tad ill besides wasting meat which cost $


Trehalose is something special in the it is a great natural antioxidant and protein protector.It masks off flavors without excessive sweetness. Trehalose increases salt flavor in low salt fresh sausages and protects from old freezer flavor of frozen meats and sausage.

Use Citric Acid when making semi-dried summer sausage, pepperoni, snack sticks & thuringer. Produces that old time tangy taste. ECA= Encapsulated Citric Acid. Dont guess at the mix, adding to much ECA will make your meat turn mushy. Never grind ECA, Mix in last by hand.

• Encapsulated to release on temperature rise (141-147 degrees) ECA
• Provides controlled acidity & release of tart taste
• Prevents stiffing of cured meat products
• 3 oz. to 25 lb. of meat for a ph of 4.9
• To be added to the mix after the grind as not to rupture the capsules

You will still need to use cure 1 but skip the fermento.

Fermento - Cultured Whey Protein and Skim Milk

A dairy based flavoring product, Fermento is cultured whey protein and skim milk, used to imitate the fermented tangy sourly flavor desired in semi-dry sausage. Used only in the production of semi-dry products, such as summer sausage, pepperoni, thuringer, etc. Fermento eliminates the time necessary for the fermentation process to take place necessary when using starter cultures.

If your adament about using fermento, save yourself some $ and go to the store in the baking cake section and buy SACO Buttermilk powder, same stuff and less $

• Accepted levels range from 1% to 6% depending on the desired result. The more Fermento used the higher the tang.
• Use Fermento only in the production of semi-dry products. Fermento eliminates the curing times necessary for the fermentation process to take place. But does not produce the traditional taste.
• Use 1% to 6% (of meat weight) to meat. 3% is a good starting point

 

[iburnedit]

Whats the advantage of this Trehalose and ECA blend vs fermento? From what im reading, its to add tang flavor just like fermento.

I read your post says fermento doesnt add the traditional taste, but i disagree. My only argument is that what i am being told is dry cured has been falsely claimed to be. And this is going back at least 20 years of eating this product.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

Well i dont know what else to post. For the sake of starting arguments i will not respond further.

You do things your way, I do things my way.

GL

 

[chopsaw]

Well i dont know what else to post. For the sake of starting arguments i will not respond further.

You do things your way, I do things my way.

GL

For what it's worth , I always look at what you're saying about sausage . Copied the info . Good stuff .
Thanks .