How to get that TANG!

[DailyLunatic]

I’m a newbie. I’ve done a couple of loose grinds. Working on recipes, gathering my equipment, etc…
Looking to my first stuffing and interested in a snack stick to give to friends here. (I live in Thailand. And pepperoni sticks are not common)
I know I can do without the Slim Jim signature tang, but would at least like to make the attempt.
First. While I have located a source for Encapsulated Citric Acid (ECA), it’s 1900 baht ($55) for three oz. so this is a last resort for my budget.
Powdered Buttermilk is available, but I hear the effects are minimal.
Lastly, I can ferment, but as a beginner I am hesitant due to lack of experience, not certain I can find correct cultures, and that even nighttime temperatures are above 30c. (No cold smoking)
Would love to hear from the hive mind about other options, or something I might have not considered or missed about above.

-Sterling

 

[pc farmer]

Can you get cultured buttermilk? I read that works good.

 

[DougE]

Aside from fermenting, ECA is the next best option, but like Adam said, cultured buttermilk powder may give you enough tang, I used it in a chicken sausage, but don't remember how much I added. I will see if I can find that particular recipe. It was good, but I don't make much chicken sausage.

 

[DougE]

Aside from fermenting, ECA is the next best option, but like Adam said, cultured buttermilk powder may give you enough tang, I used it in a chicken sausage, but don't remember how much I added. I will see if I can find that particular recipe. It was good, but I don't make much chicken sausage.

Found it. 1/2 cup buttermilk powder per 5lbs of meat. From what I remember, the tang wasn't very pronounced, but was there. That should give you a place to start from.

 

[flatbroke]

would this work for you? I’m not sure it has as much tang you are after.

 

[DailyLunatic]

View attachment 665731would this work for you? I’m not sure it has as much tang you are after.

I’m not sure. As I said I’m a newbie.

I looked and was able to find this:

but am not sure this is the same thing.

Is it a fermentation culture or an additive?

If a culture can I ferment in a fridge? I can’t hang at temps below 30-32c.

-sterling

 

[DailyLunatic]

Help. Getting more confusion, no clarity. I am still leery of fermentation.

Starting off I was warned when cold smoking, to never let the sausages get above 30c (86f) as that was a ‘danger zone’. (You’ll Die!) Then as researching today about Fermento, I see people are fermenting at 38c (100f) and above. Both with cure.

Never leave them out (You’ll Die!), hang them for 5 days, keep them hung and dry, do it in winter (You’ll…well, you get the idea), ferment in a sealed cooler with light to keep them warm, etc…

Seems to be a LOT of conflicting information. Internet, and YouTube have let me down.

Follow the recipe …sure… but most don’t mention a ‘fermentation temperature’. Cooking temps, yeah, but it gets warm here, and I want to ensure I ‘won’t die’.

Help. Can someone point to reliable information on fermented Snack Sticks that include temperatures? Not everyone lives in a refrigerator. ‘Warm’ being a relative term apparently…

 

[zwiller]

The standard reference text for the questions you ask are in this book. HIGHLY recommend. https://www.amazon.com/Home-Product...sages-ebook/dp/B00BAKOIKM?ref_=ast_author_mpb

Have not used ECA but tried the others and IMO are nothing like a true ferment. I even used live cultures of buttermilk and yogurt to ferment and they are better than fermento etc. I REALLY like the results of using FRM52. Total pro TANG. Fermenting is easy actually once you get a handle of the basics. Cure, dextrose, heat, time.

I typically use a 40W light bulb in my homebrew fridge and do 90F for 24hrs. One cool thing we recently confirmed is that fermenting can be done is fermenting via SV. I hear in an oven with light on gets warm enough to do a ferment. Bread folks use that to proof etc.

 

[jbo_c]

I’d go with the $55 of ECA for a beginner. Not cheap, but 3oz will do a fair amount of sausage - 25 pounds or so depending on dosage, possibly more(maybe less).

Buttermilk will surely not give the level of tang you’re looking for and fermento is basically a little different version of the same thing.

Fermenting is an option, but you need to do a lot of studying and be very diligent about sanitation and safety. Sausage can support the serious nasties if not done correctly. Imminently doable, just remember you’ll be giving it to family and friends.

Jbo

 

[BGKYSmoker]

If you can get some really good sauerkraut the liquid will work for tang.
Can you get Nam powder?

 

[DailyLunatic]

I’d go with the $55 of ECA for a beginner. Not cheap, but 3oz will do a fair amount of sausage - 25 pounds or so depending on dosage, possibly more(maybe less).

Buttermilk will surely not give the level of tang you’re looking for and fermento is basically a little different version of the same thing.

Fermenting is an option, but you need to do a lot of studying and be very diligent about sanitation and safety. Sausage can support the serious nasties if not done correctly. Imminently doable, just remember you’ll be giving it to family and friends.

Jbo

I’m coming to that conclusion as well. ECA or nothing… (Leaning towards nothing.)

Getting tons of advice on how to redneck keeping things WARM.

Unfortunately, I’m needing advice on how to COOL to 90f. (And no, I’m not racking these in my bedroom for 1 to 5 days. Currently the only room with AC.)

…or, alternately, how high a temp is still safe. Can 100f work? 120?

I appreciate the group effort, but I’m chalking fermentation up as a no-go without specialized facilities In Thailand.

Thanks all,
-Sterling

 

[zwiller]

FLC works at higher temps like that. I bet 120F would be fine. I believe those are the temps the commerical producers use as it works FAST at those temps. I made TONS of stuff and long time before ever fermenting BTW. Tang is not critical and at the bottom of the list IMO. https://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=document_general_info&products_id=741

 

[DailyLunatic]

It's great to hear that you're exploring the world of sausage-making and looking to create snack sticks for your friends in Thailand. While replicating the signature tang of Slim Jim can be a challenge without specific ingredients and equipment, there are alternative options you can consider:

1. Substitute for Encapsulated Citric Acid (ECA): If ECA is not within your budget, you can try using other acidic ingredients such as lemon juice or vinegar to provide a tangy flavor. However, keep in mind that these alternatives may not provide the same controlled release of acidity as ECA.
2. Powdered Cultured Buttermilk: While the effects of powdered cultured buttermilk might be minimal, it can still contribute to flavor and texture. It contains lactic acid, which can help provide some tanginess to your snack sticks. Experiment with adding a small amount and adjust according to your taste preferences.
3. Explore other flavor enhancers: Besides tanginess, there are other ingredients you can use to enhance the flavor profile of your snack sticks. Consider adding spices like paprika, garlic powder, onion powder, and pepper to give your sticks a flavorful kick.
4. Non-fermented options: Since you mentioned concerns about fermenting due to lack of experience and high temperatures, you can opt for non-fermented snack stick recipes. These recipes typically rely on curing agents like Prague powder or Instacure to provide safety and flavor. They won't have the same tang as fermented sticks, but they can still be delicious.
5. Local Thai ingredients: Embrace the local flavors and consider incorporating Thai spices or herbs into your snack stick recipe. Experiment with ingredients like lemongrass, chili peppers, Thai basil, or ginger to give your snack sticks a unique twist.

Remember, sausage-making is all about experimentation and finding what works best for your taste preferences and available ingredients. Don't be afraid to get creative and have fun with the process. Happy sausage-making!

Thank you, I appreciate the thoughtful feedback.

Just waiting on the PID for the cinderblock smoker.
Modified with an elect. burner. Yeah, it's a POS, but better is coming...

I've thought about it and have decided to try my hand at making my own ECA. Working on the process. Worst case, is I get some nasty over-tart mush.

I'll be making both with, and without the homemade ECA. Small batch first. If you have any suggestions, please let me know.

I'll be reporting results of the experiment here:

DIY ECA (Encapsulated Citric Acid)

In another thread I asked about ways to get ‘tang’ into snack sticks. Cut to the chase, being a newbie, I’m nervous about doing fermentation. Unfortunately, as explained in that thread, ECA is extremely expensive here in Thailand. So I’ve decided to give DIY a go. Can’t find any existing DIY...

www.smokingmeatforums.com

Wish me luck.

-sterling

 

[indaswamp]

Help. Can someone point to reliable information on fermented Snack Sticks that include temperatures? Not everyone lives in a refrigerator. ‘Warm’ being a relative term apparently

A lot of misinformation in your post. Hope I can clear it up for you. First, understand the degree hours formula for how long you can safely ferment commuted meats at temperatures above 60*F. Yes, it can be done safely. No you will not die as long as the pH drops low enough (below pH5.3) within the prescribed time/temp. schedule.

Understand the 4 major safety hurdles, how they work to inhibit/retard bad pathogen growth to dry meat safely.

See here and read:

https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/standards

This is an excerpt from the book I and many others have recommended to a lot of people.

 

[indaswamp]

Also, right now we have over 1000 guests on the site looking around. If my posts are not helpful to you, but the informtion is pertanent to your post, keep in mind I'm speaking to those hidden guests lurking as well. Same goes for all the experienced members here on SMF.

 

[DailyLunatic]

Also, right now we have over 1000 guests on the site looking around. If my posts are not helpful to you, but the informtion is pertanent to your post, keep in mind I'm speaking to those hidden guests lurking as well. Same goes for all the experienced members here on SMF.

Agreed.

But, it's not just that you want people to know there are alternatives to ECA. Is it?

A lot of misinformation in your post. Hope I can clear it up for you. First, understand the degree hours formula for how long you can safely ferment commuted meats at temperatures above 60*F. Yes, it can be done safely. No you will not die as long as the pH drops low enough (below pH5.3) within the prescribed time/temp. schedule.

Well, I was reporting how frustrated I was at the conflicting information I had found on the internet. Even stated that it was conflicting information. Stands to reason some of it would be wrong. But, if one groups says, it's dangerous, and another says, its safe, it puts everything in doubt.

That said, I have _also_ stated that I have decided NOT to attempt fermentation. My skill level, safety concerns, equipment, my facilities, availability of ingredients here, and how often I would attempt, etc. ALL factored into the equation.

I ask that you allow the discussion of alternatives to fermentation without further intimidation. For the 1000's lurking in the background.

-sterling

 

[DougE]

Ain't no intimidation here. We are all about safely curing meats, and inda has forgotten more than I knew in the first place. You can find conflicting information about anything you look up on google, but you can trust what you read here. Tons of experience, and if someone does post something that is unsafe, it will be called out.

 

[DailyLunatic]

Ain't no intimidation here. We are all about safely curing meats, and inda has forgotten more than I knew in the first place. You can find conflicting information about anything you look up on google, but you can trust what you read here. Tons of experience, and if someone does post something that is unsafe, it will be called out.

No problem with calling out something unsafe. It was done recently when I was contemplating use of Beeswax on another thread, and I appreciate it.

But ECA is not unsafe. Possible texture issues, but not unsafe.

My issue is the continued insistence on fermentation rather than ECA, even in a thread dedicated to ECA. It's tiresome, to say the least.

Serious question: Is use of ECA one of those taboo topics here? Like a forbidden riff in a guitar store? Trying to find out why it seems to be so triggering...

-sterling

 

[DougE]

Serious question: Is use of ECA one of those taboo topics here? Like a forbidden riff in a guitar store? Trying to find out why it seems to be so triggering...

-sterling

No ECA is not looked down upon here. I use it in some sausages I make and others use it, but it's not going to give the depth of flavor fermenting does, which is why the push in that direction. Couple what I just said with you trying to DIY it, which I expect nobody in this forum has done (we just buy it), and you have people trying to give you a better way to get the tang you want without trying to engineer your own ECA. Nobody here is trying to be anything less than helpful in getting you the results you want.

 

[DailyLunatic]

No ECA is not looked down upon here. I use it in some sausages I make and others use it, but it's not going to give the depth of flavor fermenting does, which is why the push in that direction. Couple what I just said with you trying to DIY it, which I expect nobody in this forum has done (we just buy it), and you have people trying to give you a better way to get the tang you want without trying to engineer your own ECA. Nobody here is trying to be anything less than helpful in getting you the results you want.

With respect, when speaking to this thread's discussion, you are correct.

Yeah, I was originally interested in fermentation. Unfortunately, I was getting too many canned answers on this thread that did not deal with my situation, or were listing one ever growing form of unobtanium after another. (Yeah, as you said, you just buy it, so apparently can't really relate to the problem)

Because of that, (and this is the core issue) I created a separate thread to discuss DIY ECA, as I had reached the conclusion, in this thread, that fermentation was not for me, and I wanted to separate that discussion of ECA, from this discussion of tang.

What I wasn't aware was that there is no way to discuss DIY ECA! You can't. Why? Because somebody is always going to ask you what you intend to do with it. (As though there was any other reason.) And the moment you admit that it is for that tang, the floodgates open and everyone is telling you all about their savior fermentation. Please turn to page 42 of your hymnal and lets all sing, "You said you wanted the tang."

...and me saying REPEATEDLY I wasn't interested.

Your response to that:

DougE said:
Ok, so no desire to learn. These guys are giving you ways to accomplish what you want to do, but you dismiss it out of hand.

Remember, it wasn't an 'out of hand' dismissal, and, more importantly, what I wanted was to discuss 'in that thread' was ECA. Instead, fermentation was harped, preached like a religion, in a thread dedicated to ECA. Because... "You said you wanted the tang."

Yeah, I was feeling a little intimidated. Not to a suggestion of fermentation, but that it never stopped, and from whom it came...

I'm done. No anger, just ...done... Quiet resignation. You all win. I'll hold off posting anything to this thread, or anything further about developing a DIY ECA, until after I have a working product. (...or rather I should say, 'if'. I had really hoped for help from the hive mind in its development.) It appears DIY ECA is too triggering for the group. The existing DIY thread is now so polluted with discussion of fermentation that it is useless for its intended purpose, to be an aid to DIY ECA for anyone that may come after with a situation similar to my own.

I'll shut up, shutting up, now.


:Out:

-sterling