Food Safety Chit-Chat

[diggingdogfarm]

:biggrin:  Well, I've had a brief conversation with a nice lady named Karen. She's very knowledgeable and willing to help if asked.

Here's how "she" answered my question:

"The poultry temperature of 165 degrees F is designed to eliminate "Salmonella." The National Advisory Committee on Microbiological Criteria for Foods (NACMCF) recommended the single, safe minimum internal temperature of 165 degrees F for consumers to cook poultry. The recommendation to consumers is designed to achieve a 7-log reduction of "Salmonella." Salmonella levels in poultry are higher and Salmonella are becoming more heat resistant. This process will also control "Campylobacter" and high pathogenic avian influenza (H5N1) if it arises. 

Our recommendation for whole cuts of meat is 145 degrees F with a 3 minute hold time. The hold time allows the internal temperature to gradually rise to 160 degrees F which makes the meat safe."


Not thinking of temperature rise during the 3 minute hold time for whole cuts of meat, was the reason for my misunderstanding. 

Yup, but her last sentence doesn't make sense. The amount of temperature increase in carry-over cooking depends on the size of the piece of meat and other factors.

FWIW, here's the pasteurization chart for chicken and turkey.......

poultry pasturization.png

• diggingdogfarm
• Apr 8, 2014

~Martin

 

[jp61]

Thanks Martin!

I had a couple of sentences typed regarding that in my last post but, decided to delete it before posting.  

 

[jp61]

Martin,

Regarding the chart. Where does the fat percentage come from? 

Edit: How does one go about figuring out the fat percentage?.... is what I should have typed. Guesstimate?

 

[diggingdogfarm]

There's no practical way to know for sure....to be on the safe side, I go with the highest fat percentage even though the actual percentage may be much lower.



~Martin

 

[jp61]

What if someone's better-half comes home from the market with a really fat live chicken?

Can you just add more time or does the bird have to go on the treadmill?

Edit: 

 you don't have to answer that.

 

[diggingdogfarm]

LOL

The highest percentage should be sufficient to cover everything.
In a chicken, thigh flesh, which is one of the fattest parts, is about 11% fat.




~Martin

 

[dert]

Yup, but her last sentence doesn't make sense. The amount of temperature increase in carry-over cooking depends on the size of the piece of meat and other factors.

FWIW, here's the pasteurization chart for chicken and turkey.......

poultry pasturization.png

• diggingdogfarm
• Apr 8, 2014

~Martin

Great chart!

This answers the questions above about intact, injected and ground poultry. This demonstrates a 7 log reduction (i.e., 10,000,000:1) for potentially highly contaminated product with Salmonella down to a safe level.

Beef (intact or injected) is different... E. coli is the organism if concern and has different thermal death curves...

 

[alblancher]

I had a moderator on a forum I visit pm me to let me know that cooking contaminated food will make it safe.  He cited a study out of Germany that shows temps as low as 70c   155Fwill destroy the toxins produced by E Coli.   Does anyone have examples of pathogens/toxins etc that are not made harmless by cooking to internal temps in the 85C  185F range?  

 

[sajata]

botulism will not be rendered safe no mater how much it is cooked or how it is cooked. since it is a nuro toxin and not a bacteria

 

[diggingdogfarm]

"The toxins produced by both proteolytic and non-proteolytic
strains of Clostridium botulinum are inactivated at boiling
temperatures. When foods are brought to a boil [212°F (100°C)],
the toxin is inactivated and the food becomes safe to consume."

http://www.hi-tm.com/RFA/food-path-summ.pdf

It's important to note that it's extremely irresponsible to attempt to to render any food that's likely toxic "safe"....it should be discarded.



~Martin

 

[jp61]

botulism will not be rendered safe no mater how much it is cooked or how it is cooked. since it is a nuro toxin and not a bacteria

CDC

"Many cases of botulism are preventable. Foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn and is caused by failure to follow proper canning methods. However, seemingly unlikely or unusual sources are found every decade, with the common problem of improper handling during manufacture, at retail, or by consumers; some examples are chopped garlic in oil, canned cheese sauce, chile peppers, tomatoes, carrot juice, and baked potatoes wrapped in foil. In Alaska, foodborne botulism is caused by fermented fish and other aquatic game foods. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods, and carefully follow instructions on safe home canning including the use of pressure canners/cookers as recommended through county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated. Because the botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Wound botulism can be prevented by promptly seeking medical care for infected wounds and by not using injectable street drugs. Most infant botulism cases cannot be prevented because the bacteria that causes this disease is in soil and dust.  The bacteria can be found inside homes on floors, carpet, and countertops even after cleaning.  Honey can contain the bacteria that causes infant botulism so, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age and older."

 

[jp61]

 
I had a moderator on a forum I visit pm me to let me know that cooking contaminated food will make it safe.  He cited a study out of Germany that shows temps as low as 70c   155Fwill destroy the toxins produced by E Coli.   Does anyone have examples of pathogens/toxins etc that are not made harmless by cooking to internal temps in the 85C  185F range?  

CDC

"Staphylococcal food poisoning is a gastrointestinal illness. It is caused by eating foods contaminated with toxins produced by Staphylococcus aureus . The most common way for food to be contaminated with Staphylococcus is through contact with food workers who carry the bacteria or through contaminated milk and cheeses. Staphylococcus is salt tolerant and can grow in salty foods like ham. As the germ multiplies in food, it produces toxins that can cause illness. Staphylococcal toxins are resistant to heat and cannot be destroyed by cooking. Foods at highest risk of contamination with Staphylococcus aureus and subsequent toxin production are those that are made by hand and require no cooking. Some examples of foods that have caused staphylococcal food poisoning are sliced meat, puddings, some pastries and sandwiches."

 

[alblancher]

The op on the forum asked if he would get sick after frying venison that had been in the freezer too long in what turned out to be rancid peanut oil.   My reply was that he is probably ok but following safe food techniques are important   blah, blah, blah.  

in response to my post I was challenged in the pm with the E Coli reference.    So now I am wondering if everything I know about food safety especially about keeping fresh foods at safe temps before cooking, about discarding food that sat overnight in a refrigerator left open etc  is now no longer accurate.   

Are we now saying that as long as the food hasn't developed smell or texture issues that would make it un-palatable if you cook it at a high enough temperature you can still consume it.  I just can't  image a health inspector allowing meat or chicken to be left at room temperatures  for hours before cooking.   Gee, I'm away from the forum for a couple of months and the whole darn world starts spinning in another direction!!

 

[diggingdogfarm]

If someone has to use extreme temperatures to render their food safe to eat (and defend that practice), they're definitely making some majorly irresponsible mistakes elsewhere.
I sure as heck wouldn't sit down at their table!!!!



~Martin

 

[jp61]

"The toxins produced by both proteolytic and non-proteolytic
strains of Clostridium botulinum are inactivated at boiling
temperatures. When foods are brought to a boil [212°F (100°C)],
the toxin is inactivated and the food becomes safe to consume."

Martin,

I thought the need for pressure cookers in canning was to have the ability to get past 212°F in order to inactivate C botulinum?

 

[jp61]

  As important as food safety is and its basic understanding for consumers, when I attempt to zoom in on the matter, it hurts my 2 brain cells! This STUFF is complex!!

 

[diggingdogfarm]

"The toxins produced by both proteolytic and non-proteolytic

strains of Clostridium botulinum are inactivated at boiling

temperatures. When foods are brought to a boil [212°F (100°C)],

the toxin is inactivated and the food becomes safe to consume."



Martin,

I thought the need for pressure cookers in canning was to have the ability to get past 212°F in order to inactivate C botulinum?

Yeah, you do need to exceed that temperature to reliability kill the spores (when home canning), but that's different than rendering the toxin safe.



~Martin

 

[jp61]

FDA

"Foodborne Illness Is Serious Business

Foodborne illness can strike anyone. However, some people are at a higher risk for developing foodborne illness. These include pregnant women, young children, older adults and people with weakened immune systems. If you — or someone you care for — are in one of these at-risk groups, it’s important to pay extra attention to handling food safely."

Yesterday I printed out a food safety brochure for senior citizens and ordered a thermapen for my soon to be 73yr old mother. Early B-day present 

 

 

[jp61]

Yeah, you do need to exceed that temperature to reliability kill the spores (when home canning), but that's different than rendering the toxin safe.



~Martin

You're 100% correct. I had 250°F stuck in my mind.

 

[sajata]

 
CDC

"Staphylococcal food poisoning is a gastrointestinal illness. It is caused by eating foods contaminated with toxins produced by Staphylococcus aureus . The most common way for food to be contaminated with Staphylococcus is through contact with food workers who carry the bacteria or through contaminated milk and cheeses. Staphylococcus is salt tolerant and can grow in salty foods like ham. As the germ multiplies in food, it produces toxins that can cause illness. Staphylococcal toxins are resistant to heat and cannot be destroyed by cooking. Foods at highest risk of contamination with Staphylococcus aureus and subsequent toxin production are those that are made by hand and require no cooking. Some examples of foods that have caused staphylococcal food poisoning are sliced meat, puddings, some pastries and sandwiches."

 
CDC

"Many cases of botulism are preventable. Foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn and is caused by failure to follow proper canning methods. However, seemingly unlikely or unusual sources are found every decade, with the common problem of improper handling during manufacture, at retail, or by consumers; some examples are chopped garlic in oil, canned cheese sauce, chile peppers, tomatoes, carrot juice, and baked potatoes wrapped in foil. In Alaska, foodborne botulism is caused by fermented fish and other aquatic game foods. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods, and carefully follow instructions on safe home canning including the use of pressure canners/cookers as recommended through county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated. Because the botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Wound botulism can be prevented by promptly seeking medical care for infected wounds and by not using injectable street drugs. Most infant botulism cases cannot be prevented because the bacteria that causes this disease is in soil and dust.  The bacteria can be found inside homes on floors, carpet, and countertops even after cleaning.  Honey can contain the bacteria that causes infant botulism so, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age and older."

While I truly hate to be proven wrong, I am rather glad I was. I have taken a number of sausage making class around the country. both fresh and dry.  and in each one they either directly or indirectly said that once something has been contaminated with botulism there is no way back.  While the threat of that pushes me to practice safe charcuterie.  But lately I have been fooling around with sous vide and that has me even more worried.   but it wounds like if I can develop recipes that get the food hot enough it will eliminate the threat.   I understand nothing replace safe food processing but in some cases I would like an extra margin of safety.  Pancetta comes to mind.   I always cook it before I/we eat it, so that should mitigate any threat from botulism that may have snuck through.

Thanks, I love this place....