Exploring Low Carb, Healthy Fat, Moderate Protein Diet - Not Keto Quite Yet

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noboundaries

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Sep 7, 2013
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Roseville, CA, a suburb of Sacramento
I don't really have a sweet tooth, but loved carbs like bread, pasta, potatoes, rice, beans, etc. More than a decade ago, my 6.7 A1C labeled me as pre-diabetic. Doc prescribed Metformin. Nothing really changed, but at some time afterwards, I started suffering from crippling anxiety. It got so bad I often couldn't leave the house. After 10+ years on Met, I went on a short trip and forgot the meds. The anxiety disappeared in two frigging days!

Doc checked my A1C at 6.1 and put me on Glipizide. Soon afterwards, I was eating Ibuprofen like candy due to the joint pain in my shoulders. After 11 months on the glip, mild depression started due to the constant, often agonizing shoulder pain. My glucose readings were the highest (170s to 190s) after meals and lowest (80's to 100) after a stationary bike ride on the glip.

I stopped the glip and the shoulder pain only happened after eating, and only lasted about an hour. It definitely increased after eating anything with the items I first mentioned above, even whole grains, which I transitioned to years ago.

My blood pressure is normal: so is organ function. That's when I told my doc I'm done with the meds and am taking control. Berberine, non-starchy vegetables, EVOO, nuts, and unfiltered apple cider vinegar have become my natural meds. 20% carbs, 20% protein, and 60% healthy fats are what I monitor in the MyFitnessPal app, something I've used daily since 2016. Glucose readings are 100 to low 130s. Still not perfect, but getting there.

I've given up bread and potatoes (which wasn't easy). Cut WAY back on grains and legumes. My weight has dropped 13 lbs in two months. I can work out without suffering agonizing pain for days afterwards. Skin issues disappeared.

Shoulder pain and skin issues reappear if I eat something I know I shouldn't. Late night carb cravings were my nemesis. I'd wake up for 2-3 hours and couldn't fall back asleep unless I ate bread, pretzels, or crackers, often to excess. I'd be asleep within minutes when I did so. Now, when I wakeup and get the cravings, I have a few baby carrots with a splash of EVOO, vinegar, and seasoning. Cravings gone, no excess eating, and asleep in minutes.

Am I giving medical advice. Nope. I'm saying pay attention to your body. If you are taking meds and suffering side-effects, discuss them with your doctor and find something else that works. Educate yourself from credible sources. Getting old sucks, but feeling out of control of one's own body makes it worse.

Stay healthy and happy.

Ray
 
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As a pre-diabetic, a guy with a bad back, and gout - a model of American health right! - I do have to pay attention to what I eat. Thankfully the gout is very well managed by allopurinol and I can eat all the stuff that normally brings on gout..... to excess - as I did when I did keto.

I love carbs. Not sweet, but good warm bread, pasta done right, etc....

I did keto last year for about 7 months. I felt so much better. To be honest, keto my way is expensive. Cheap Food Lion brand butter went from 2.79 to 4.89 in those few months, we all know what eggs and avocado and cream were running, and my grocery bills were ridiculous. When I tapped out on keto, it was honestly so I could eat a little cheaper. The weight went back on (not quite all of it yet, but yeah, it's knocking on that door) and I started getting more and more inflammation.

I want to go back to keto, and grocery prices are down, but I'm more addicted to carbs than ever. I mean, happiness is gumbo, beef and dumplings, chicken and dumplings, fresh warm bread slathered in my new favorite butter (Plugra). This stuff makes all the other butters taste like flavorless lard. Way better than Kerrygold.


I think that after the holidays I'll go back to it. Lowish carb doesn't work for me, though high protein rather than fat will take weight off of me slowly. For me to get into ketosis, I had to do ZERO carbs for a week or more than I could do 10-20 day and maintain ketosis.

Our bodies do talk to us, but our brains and mouths override what our bodies say way to often.
 
What I've learned after 2.5 months of exploring low to no carb dieting. 15 lbs lost and I can tell I'm coming off another plateau. The information below only applies to me.

1. No carb/carnivore does not work for my body. I could never get rid of the "keto flu."
2. Low carb (20-50g per day) does not work for my body or my blood sugar. My weight plateau'd, my measurements actually increased, and my glucose readings started going up.
3. A 20-25% carb, 25-30% protein, rest fats works best for my body so far (free MyFitnessPal app). Still rarely grains, legumes, or potatoes. I'm eating 2000 to 2600 cals/day.
4. I've learned interesting and delicious ways to prepare/include broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, and cabbage in meals. Onions, some carrots, bok choy, and garlic are staples now around here.
5. Sausage and bacon are GREAT flavor enhancers.
6. 5 eggs in the morning keeps me satisfied well into the early afternoon.
7. EVOO, ACV, turmeric, Ceylon cinnamon, and berberine are great for controlling my blood sugar spikes. I drink a concoction of chamomile tea, boiling water, ACV, Ceylon cinnamon, and a stevia or monk fruit sweetner before bed. My fasting morning glucose readings dropped from the 130's to 140's to 110's to 120's. Research cinnamon if you want to learn why Ceylon cinnamon is the most healthy and least toxic.
8. 8 oz Alkaline water (Trader Joes) immediately after a weight workout prevents lactic acid burn in my muscles.
9. I've cheated twice in 2.5 months. Once was our 43'rd anniversary where we tried a gourmet pizza place nearby. Fantastic pizza and salad. Second was last night with a sausage, broccoli, onion, garlic, cabbage, cherry/grape tomato, and EVOO pasta dish where I only used half as much pasta as I would have in the past. Packed with great flavor and textures.
10. My wife has achieved lower weights she hasn't seen in more than 10 years.
11. This does not feel like a fad or restrictive program.

Hopefully, my experience will give you some ideas you can discuss with a doctor.

Happy eating!

Ray
 
Sounds like you might be on the right track... I'll follow along! I don't currently diet or watch what I eat... but I sure crave taters and pasta and bread right now.

Ryan
 
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What I've learned after 2.5 months of exploring low to no carb dieting. 15 lbs lost and I can tell I'm coming off another plateau. The information below only applies to me.

1. No carb/carnivore does not work for my body. I could never get rid of the "keto flu."
2. Low carb (20-50g per day) does not work for my body or my blood sugar. My weight plateau'd, my measurements actually increased, and my glucose readings started going up.
3. A 20-25% carb, 25-30% protein, rest fats works best for my body so far (free MyFitnessPal app). Still rarely grains, legumes, or potatoes. I'm eating 2000 to 2600 cals/day.
4. I've learned interesting and delicious ways to prepare/include broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, and cabbage in meals. Onions, some carrots, bok choy, and garlic are staples now around here.
5. Sausage and bacon are GREAT flavor enhancers.
6. 5 eggs in the morning keeps me satisfied well into the early afternoon.
7. EVOO, ACV, turmeric, Ceylon cinnamon, and berberine are great for controlling my blood sugar spikes. I drink a concoction of chamomile tea, boiling water, ACV, Ceylon cinnamon, and a stevia or monk fruit sweetner before bed. My fasting morning glucose readings dropped from the 130's to 140's to 110's to 120's. Research cinnamon if you want to learn why Ceylon cinnamon is the most healthy and least toxic.
8. 8 oz Alkaline water (Trader Joes) immediately after a weight workout prevents lactic acid burn in my muscles.
9. I've cheated twice in 2.5 months. Once was our 43'rd anniversary where we tried a gourmet pizza place nearby. Fantastic pizza and salad. Second was last night with a sausage, broccoli, onion, garlic, cabbage, cherry/grape tomato, and EVOO pasta dish where I only used half as much pasta as I would have in the past. Packed with great flavor and textures.
10. My wife has achieved lower weights she hasn't seen in more than 10 years.
11. This does not feel like a fad or restrictive program.

Hopefully, my experience will give you some ideas you can discuss with a doctor.

Happy eating!

Ray
Great report!

Yeah I basically do keto and don't feel restrictive either.
I found for me I have to also watch my calorie count. I can't just do 25gm net carbs I gotta also reduce calories to drop weight but been dropping and keeping it going. I found a 1 day fast really helped reset my body.

Seems like it would be hard but honestly, it's 10x harder to try and eat just a little vs just doing a 1 day fast for me. I only drink water. Doing tea and other stuff kinda makes me want to have more things.

Finally, one of my go-to secrets is Shiratiki rice!
It's more the texture of a noodle but in smaller rice grain looking form. Now that they have it this small I can sub it for anything that would be rice or noodles and it works PERFECTLY!!!
The shiratki noodles have too tough a texture though so I avoid them. The rice is the way to go.
It has like next to no calories or net carbs so making a soup, rice, pasta, or any other type of dish with it is like free food and it takes on the flavor of whatever you cook with it. I love the flexibility of the stuff!

My go to with it recently is to make some real deal enchilada sauce (with my recently acquired vitamix blender lol), shirataki rice, a little cheese, and grilled boneless skinless chicken breast.
Boneless skinless chicken breast is my other secret. 1 pound = 500 calories and 0 carbs!!! Plenty filling and I sure do know how to cook it well. I eat like a freaky king with plenty of filling variety with these 2 items!

Keep it up man!
 
Good info, been on metformin for a long time, on glipizide now and have had shoulder issues and wish I had kept track but it maybe due to it, going to research some, thought my shoulders were just worn out, next week is my last week as I am retiring and thought about getting shoulders looked at. maybe some other changes are in order first.
 
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The GMO grains in most foods and flour these days have a very complex molecular structure that is hard for some people's body to process. This is why we get fatter in modern times than we did eating carbs as a staple 50-100 years ago. Also why we have all these people with gluten intolerance and allergies now.

The expense of staying away from GMO stuff is high though. I keep Einkhorn ancient grain AP flour on hand for when I want to make a roux, etc. but the stuff is very expensive compared to store-brand AP flour off the shelf.

Also, for lower-carb, not "keto" eating, there are pastas available now that are better for you in that regard...shiritaki is nasty in my opinion. Tried that stuff when I went keto and preferred to not even try to simulate pasta or rice with that stuff. We just learned to do without, except the pastas I learned to make from scratch using ingredients you simply cannot get at the usual grocery store. Those pastas were OK, I even made a lasagna that was really good that everyone would eat and enjoy. A lot of work though and sadly the Low Carb Neighborhood Forum I was a member off is not functioning anymore (if you look for it and find it working let me know, it's there as a .com but not functioning anymore). I learned so much there, even how to make excellent low carb ice cream.

I just got lower carb lasagna pasta sheets I plan to try as the weather gets cold. I haven't tried these yet https://netrition.com/products/ciao-carb-lasagna

But have used their other pastas like this https://netrition.com/products/ciao-carb-nutriwell-fusilli and they are very good.

Fiber Gourmet makes elbows https://netrition.com/products/fiber-gourmet-light-pasta that I use to make stovetop mac-N-cheese with a keto cheese sauce (no flour). The secret to the cheese sauce is sodium citrate, another ingredient you wont normally find on the grocery shelf. There are recipes available online. I use a version of this one https://www.seriousketo.com/archives/7542 tweaked and kicked up with seasonings and usually add a jar of drained pimentos for pimento mac-N-cheese!
 
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I feel ya, Ray!

I went keto for weight loss, best my records show, sometime in early 2018 it looks like. It was insane. I made the terrible mistake of trying the South Beach approach...oh heck no. I moved to Atkins style and that helped. On the first low carb forum I joined I was complaining about the horrible tragic loss of starches in my diet, it really IS like the death of a loved one. One sage member posed to me, is it really so bad that you can have a nice perfectly cooked steak smothered in Bearnaise sauce? I immediately grilled a steak and made her easy microwave Bearnaise sauce she shared...and felt much better!

My wife and I lost 40lbs in roughly two years, bieng very strict although she never did give up fruit. I had had enough by the time I hit the 40lb point, my goal was 50 so i figured 80% of the goal was pretty good. We began splurging here and there, then back to strict. I realized I didn't immediately blow up, but eating sugar for the both of us made us feel weird unless we kept it to a minimum. We're splurging regularly now, and admittedly the weight went up, but really it was the bloat more than the weight. I'm still running within 5lbs of that crater weight I hit, but the belly looks like more. The wife is similar.

I'm kind of in an "eat drink and enjoy what you have today, because tomorrow holds no promise" frame of mind with what I see coming, but still dont want to get back to as fat as I was, just from a mobility sense...I still have firewood to fell, saw, split and stack!...every year...never ending...

Fortunately I have stayed just on this side of pre-diabetic, but we're eating much more carbs these days. Not a bunch of sugar, just the flour, corn and rice stuff.

I had a similar issue with meds. For me it was Simvastatin...any statin really. Those things are poison to my body. After bieng convinced to go back on one, I thought I was tolerating it OK. I thought my body was just falling apart from age and a lifetime of drinking. Then I ran out of that med, and was in no hurry to refill because where I get meds filled the cheapest is "in town" and I plan other stops when I go to "town", plus it was just a cholesterol med, not something like my BP med that makes an immediate difference.

About a week went by and suddenly I realized I was walking better and not in the hip and joint pain I had been suffering so bad. It was the statin!...again. I had been through this in years past, trying one then another...all of them hurt me in one way or another.

I messaged my doc through MyChart and told him I was done with it. He replied saying he totally supported my decision, which shocked me. In the past I actually had doctors ask me how much pain I could stand! I would rather go ahead and die rather than live every day in that level of pain. Now, we dont even do lipid labs. He says "if we arent going to treat it, whats the point?". I agree, leave me alone about the cholesterol stuff. I've seen studies from Europe that show across a huge sampling of people over ten years that the statins do nothing to stop heart disease. Sure, the drugs can reduce those "numbers" they obsess on, the thing is, do those numbers REALLY change when you will have your heart attack? And lets face it, most men are going to have a heart attack at some point unless something else takes them first.
 
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have had shoulder issues and wish I had kept track
I hear ya, Mike. After football when younger, then decades of circuit weight training, still my preferred exercise, doc's told me it was arthritis and tissue damage from weights. Definitely some arthritis, but inflammation from eating wrong and med response was the biggest culprit for me.

My left shoulder is my "wrong eating" and "bad medicine" shoulder. It is 0953 as I type this. Both shoulders have minimal pain and full movement, but I've not had any coffee or food yet. When I eat or drink anything that spikes my blood glucose, either directly from calories or from my liver creating glucose, my left shoulder pain increases to a degree.

Shoulder pain in the right shoulder can be due to arthritis, but can also be a liver response. When I ride my reclining stationary bike, my right shoulder will start aching a bit, and I'm not using my shoulders at all. Still reseaching this right shoulder/liver indicator point.

For 90% of human history, humans were hunter-gatherers. We are not designed to eat the engineered corporation nauga-food that is killing everyone. But oh well...
Amen, RS. Aaaaamen.

The GMO grains in most foods and flour these days have a very complex molecular structure that is hard for some people's body to process. This is why we get fatter in modern times than we did eating carbs as a staple 50-100 years ago. Also why we have all these people with gluten intolerance and allergies now.
GMO. Ugh. All in the name of greater crop yields and more profit.

Simvastatin...any statin really. Those things are poison to my body.
Another Amen! Doc prescribed them to me as 40-year old and after a while I couldn't walk around the block without having massive lactic acid muscle burn. Weights? Forget it! One 15-20 min session took me a week to recover from. I'd never felt so weak in my life. After a couple years I told the doc no way am I continuing the statins and they made me state that in front of a witness.

There's a name for the current pharmaceutical-based medical model that addresses common illness with chemicals instead of lifestyle change. The name escapes me for the moment. All I can say is I've yet to meet a prescription I can live with comfortably.
 
I hear ya, Mike. After football when younger, then decades of circuit weight training, still my preferred exercise, doc's told me it was arthritis and tissue damage from weights. Definitely some arthritis, but inflammation from eating wrong and med response was the biggest culprit for me.

My left shoulder is my "wrong eating" and "bad medicine" shoulder. It is 0953 as I type this. Both shoulders have minimal pain and full movement, but I've not had any coffee or food yet. When I eat or drink anything that spikes my blood glucose, either directly from calories or from my liver creating glucose, my left shoulder pain increases to a degree.

Shoulder pain in the right shoulder can be due to arthritis, but can also be a liver response. When I ride my reclining stationary bike, my right shoulder will start aching a bit, and I'm not using my shoulders at all. Still reseaching this right shoulder/liver indicator point.


Amen, RS. Aaaaamen.


GMO. Ugh. All in the name of greater crop yields and more profit.


Another Amen! Doc prescribed them to me as 40-year old and after a while I couldn't walk around the block without having massive lactic acid muscle burn. Weights? Forget it! One 15-20 min session took me a week to recover from. I'd never felt so weak in my life. After a couple years I told the doc no way am I continuing the statins and they made me state that in front of a witness.

There's a name for the current pharmaceutical-based medical model that addresses common illness with chemicals instead of lifestyle change. The name escapes me for the moment. All I can say is I've yet to meet a prescription I can live with comfortably.
Illness-profit-industry.
 
Yep, if they solved the problems, we wouldn't need them anymore.

I have to admit, some of medicine is still amazing. My 80 year old dad had about a foot of his colon removed and they found cancer in the lymph nodes. One round of chemo showed him not positive for now. But how amazing is it they can cut out a piece of colon, pull it down and reattach and not too long after...going to the bathroom on your own again? The same man had his heart attack at age 60 and living on the same stent. He's back out playing golf, hunting deer and using a chainsaw.

I dont see me making it to 80...He never stops moving, and I have no problem not moving!
 
The GMO grains in most foods and flour these days have a very complex molecular structure that is hard for some people's body to process. This is why we get fatter in modern times than we did eating carbs as a staple 50-100 years ago. Also why we have all these people with gluten intolerance and allergies now.

The expense of staying away from GMO stuff is high though. I keep Einkhorn ancient grain AP flour on hand for when I want to make a roux, etc. but the stuff is very expensive compared to store-brand AP flour off the shelf.

Also, for lower-carb, not "keto" eating, there are pastas available now that are better for you in that regard...shiritaki is nasty in my opinion. Tried that stuff when I went keto and preferred to not even try to simulate pasta or rice with that stuff. We just learned to do without, except the pastas I learned to make from scratch using ingredients you simply cannot get at the usual grocery store. Those pastas were OK, I even made a lasagna that was really good that everyone would eat and enjoy. A lot of work though and sadly the Low Carb Neighborhood Forum I was a member off is not functioning anymore (if you look for it and find it working let me know, it's there as a .com but not functioning anymore). I learned so much there, even how to make excellent low carb ice cream.

I just got lower carb lasagna pasta sheets I plan to try as the weather gets cold. I haven't tried these yet https://netrition.com/products/ciao-carb-lasagna

But have used their other pastas like this https://netrition.com/products/ciao-carb-nutriwell-fusilli and they are very good.

Fiber Gourmet makes elbows https://netrition.com/products/fiber-gourmet-light-pasta that I use to make stovetop mac-N-cheese with a keto cheese sauce (no flour). The secret to the cheese sauce is sodium citrate, another ingredient you wont normally find on the grocery shelf. There are recipes available online. I use a version of this one https://www.seriousketo.com/archives/7542 tweaked and kicked up with seasonings and usually add a jar of drained pimentos for pimento mac-N-cheese!
I get pretty good shirataki rice but I can understand how some of it is not going to work for folks, especially the smelly ones lol.

I also have some soybean flour pasta which is great BUT the calorie content is basically the same as real pasta though the carbs great for a serving or 2 in a day and it's like al dente pasta for sure! Good stuff. I have this in the pantry now:

I personally have to watch both carbs and calories to drop though so I stick with the higher quality shirataki rice and do some pretty cool things with it. Going to make a mac n cheese here later. It's low carb for sure but not low calorie but oh well it's a little bit of a special occasion lol.

These struggles and journey's are real and all the sharing and info we can gather is much needed! :D
 
For sure. What we will do to simulate those starches has no boundaries at least to some point. I was making my own low carb pasta for a while and convinced myself it was good. In reality it was "edible". Same with low carb breads. A member I followed on the low carb forum I was part of before it shut down, was instrumental in my low carb experience. Her recipes make some very edible, even good stuff.
Here is one of her cookbooks

I baked my own LC breads and rolls for a few years. But now, with 6-4-7 and other LC breads on the store shelf, not so much. Plus we're simply eating the real thing more often. Not every day, but we do splurge. There is a diet method called "cheat day" for low carb that some people pull off without dropping them out of ketosis...but we are WAY out of ketosis! I also fast as long as possible until lunch. Sometimes I wont eat anything from dinnertime...maybe 6:30 PM till lunch around 1-1:30, around 19 hours. It depends on the morning. Sometimes black coffee is all my body asks for so thats what I give it along with the daily supplements I take. Other mornings I wake up hungry like this morning. I had a 1/4 of a low carb Sola bagel with cream cheese and everything seasoning which will likely hold me till lunch after 1. If I need something else it will be a quick microwaved 1 minute egg. BUT, for lunch today it will be Thai food...even some rice!
 
Wouldn't it be better to eat real carbs, occasionally - say 5% of the time - and a hunter-gatherer diet - 95% of the time - than try to imitate carbs (that you are never satisfied with), or suffer the consequences of over-eating real carbs?

In my humble opinion any casual observation of "the public" is glaring proof that a diet high in grains/carbs is killing everyone.

I was raised in an Italian family and I have detested "pasta" since I was 10-years old, because every time we would eat it I would feel lethargic for 2-days after - and I was a healthy 10-year old kid!!!

Now, I make meatballs and sausage simmered in homemade marinara for about 6-hours, and just have bowls of meatballs & sausages with sauce and a little grated Parmigiano-Reggiano, and that's it! And I never get that sloth feeling!

Just my 2-cents.
 
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On those extremely rare occasions when I do eat bread - I tear that spongy useless inner part out, and just eat the crust - its just a handle! :emoji_laughing:

These are hunter-gatherer sandwiches! :emoji_sunglasses:
IMG_1613.JPG
 
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On those extremely rare occasions when I do eat bread - I tear that spongy useless inner part out, and just eat the crust - its just a handle! :emoji_laughing:

These are hunter-gatherer sandwiches! :emoji_sunglasses:
View attachment 680951
I'm not sure which I would choose, the heavily loaded sandwich or what looks like a fine bottle of bourbon there. Looks like the bourbon is almost empty, and 110+ proof is a little hot for me and I have plenty of bourbon on hand...all the time...so I'll takes the sammitch!

Also, fun fact, distilled spirits have zero carbs! Yep, about 100 calories per 1.5 oz but no carbs, contrary to the beliefs of many. I was overjoyed to learn this when going low carb. Vodka before dinner...bourbon after, thats my jam...

Doesn't apply to anything sweetened like Kahlua, Honey bourbon, etc.. That shiznit will make you fat...if you drink it all the time.
 
Wouldn't it be better to eat real carbs, occasionally - say 5% of the time - and a hunter-gatherer diet - 95% of the time - than try to imitate carbs (that you are never satisfied with), or suffer the consequences of over-eating real carbs?

In my humble opinion any casual observation of "the public" is glaring proof that a diet high in grains/carbs is killing everyone.

I was raised in an Italian family and I have detested "pasta" since I was 10-years old, because every time we would eat it I would feel lethargic for 2-days after - and I was a healthy 10-year old kid!!!

Now, I make meatballs and sausage simmered in homemade marinara for about 6-hours, and just have bowls of meatballs & sausages with sauce and a little grated Parmigiano-Reggiano, and that's it! And I never get that sloth feeling!

Just my 2-cents.
Well, it doesn't work that way when you need to lose serious weight, at least for most people. You have to be hungry or missing something to lose weight in my experience. I do not believe the diets that tell you otherwise...its a head game.

I've lost 40 lbs twice in my life on purpose. First time was when I was about 30. I was weighed for life insurance and could not believe what the scale said. That time it was a low fat diet. It worked, but was no fun. Second time was in recent years in my 50's with low carb/keto. It was also no fun, but it worked. I got in my own head with the low fat diet, and psyched myself in to enjoying hunger pangs. Every growl of the stomach was weight loss. With keto, it was high protien snacks that got me meal to meal.

I mentioned before that the wife and I are eating more carbs now. Much like what you wrote, we dont require carbs with every meal now that we have lived a life of 25 grams or less a day. I dont keep "carby" snacks around the house and exactly like you wrote, we can have a meal of just meatballs, marinara and a salad with unsweetened dressings. Carbs are a splurge for us but we do eat them. We have a piece of fruit every day, I make proper Reubin's with my pastrami once every couple of months, we'll eat a takeout sandwich, etc..

With Schmidt's 6-4-7 breads and other similar ones on the market shelves...Joseph's lavash for wraps, etc. there are lower carb options that are tasty. And sometimes we go full industrial/chemical and have the best chicken sandwich in fast food...the Popeye's Chicken sandwich in all it's crunchy guilty goodness...and I love a Subway BMT on that Italian cheese bread...dang, I'm hungry now but I want to fast till lunch!
 
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