Dry Cured no nitrite bacon, versus smoked bacon with nitrites

[Lorenzoid]

Prosciutto or Prosciutto di Parma is a product I don't care to emulate.
I eat very little of that delicacy so store bought works for me.
Country ham or Tennessee ham is a product I will not make nor eat. (Not my taste!)
Both are traditionally pure salt cured hams or rear legs of the oinker.
Both methods produce nicely colored meats. Not pinky of nitrite cured, but not grey as pork belly.

Ah, yes, I forgot about “country ham.” I tried making one once when I received a full leg, but I chickened out safety-wise and used some Cure #2. Traditionally salt-only, though.

 

[daveomak]

I know you gurus know this, but for the record, saltpeter is potassium nitrate, which breaks down into nitrite during the curing process.

Whether the source is nitrates from celery juice powder or saltpeter or sodium nitrite in Prague powder, there is no getting around the fact that it is ultimately nitrite (okay, which further breaks down into nitric oxide etc. etc.) that gives meat the appearance, texture and flavor we think of as "cured." Italian salumi, French charcuterie, American cold cuts, bacon, ham--whatever--it is nitrites doing the job.

You have omitted some facts..

Nitrate will not cure meat, nor will it kill botulism at refrigeration temperatures...
The meat needs to be at temps 50-60F to allow the "nitrate" bacteria to grow to break down the nitrate to nitrite to do the food safety transformation nitrite has..

Please correct your post before others read it and assume you are correct..

 

[Lorenzoid]

You have omitted some facts..

Nitrate will not cure meat, nor will it kill botulism at refrigeration temperatures...
The meat needs to be at temps 50-60F to allow the "nitrate" bacteria to grow to break down the nitrate to nitrite to do the food safety transformation nitrite has..

Please correct your post before others read it and assume you are correct..

Of course—I omitted plenty in the interest of brevity. But in which sentence do I say “nitrate cures meat” or kills anything in itself?

Nitrates break down into nitrites over time, generally as a result of bacterial action. Nitrites then produce nitric oxide, as I mentioned. And the nitric oxide reacts with the meat’s myoglobin. At least that’s the simplified explanation. As someone pointed out in a post above, for further reading about how the curing process works, Marianski’s books are a great resource.

 

[daveomak]

Of course—I omitted plenty in the interest of brevity. But in which sentence do I say “nitrate cures meat” or kills anything in itself?

Nitrates break down into nitrites over time, generally specifically as a result of bacterial action. Nitrites then produce nitric oxide, as I mentioned. And the nitric oxide reacts with the meat’s myoglobin. At least that’s the simplified explanation. As someone pointed out in a post above, for further reading about how the curing process works, Marianski’s books are a great resource.

Salt does not kill bacteria, it simply prevents or slows down their development. To be effective the salt concentration has to be 10% or higher. Salt concentration of 6% prevents Clostridium botulinum spores from becoming toxins though they may become active when smoking at low temperatures. Adding sodium nitrite (Cure #1) eliminates that danger.

Marianski, Stanley. Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages (Kindle Locations 596-599). Bookmagic LLC. Kindle Edition.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Ah, so it's my "generally" that's the problem. That is simply my nature--an abundance of caution in making assertions. I said "generally" rather than "specifically" because I'm not certain science has established that there couldn't be something else at work there in addition to bacteria. Bacteria is understood to be the mechanism, as Marianski explains. I wasn't referring to salt, if that's what you meant by quoting Marianski.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Whether the source is nitrates from celery juice powder or saltpeter or sodium nitrite in Prague powder

Nitrate is not the same as nitrite, to be clear.
If the source of nitrite is through celery juice or saltpeter, which is nitrate, can you explain the process by which nitrate becomes nitrite, how it happens and why?

Nitrate cures nothing directly
Nitrite acts directly in curing.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Nitrate is not the same as nitrite, to be clear.
If the source of nitrite is through celery juice or saltpeter, which is nitrate, can you explain the process by which nitrate becomes nitrite, how it happens and why?

Nitrate cures nothing directly
Nitrite acts directly in curing.

I'm having a tough day/week with words. Let me fix that up.

Whether the source of nitrite is nitrate from celery juice powder or saltpeter, which breaks down into nitrite, or sodium nitrite in Prague powder ...

I think that's better. Yes?

As for how nitrate breaks down into nitrite, isn't that generally understood to be through the action of bacteria? I will defer to sources such as Marianski for a more complete explanation.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I'm having a tough day/week with words. Let me fix that up.

Whether the source of nitrite is nitrate from celery juice powder or saltpeter, which breaks down into nitrite, or sodium nitrite in Prague powder ...

I think that's better. Yes?

As for how nitrate breaks down into nitrite, isn't that generally understood to be through the action of bacteria? I will defer to sources such as Marianski for a more complete explanation.

The problem with your nitrate comments is,
1) nitrate cannot be used in bacon.
2) at refrigeration temperature, below 40*F nitrate is not reduced to nitrite.
3) we are talking in this thread, about bacon.

Nitrate is reduced to nitrite by lactobacillus and staphylococcus bacteria. These bacteria need to be in the 55*F range to be active. At refrigeration temperature, below 40*F they are inactive and cannot reduce nitrate. Never mention nitrate in a bacon thread.

 

[chef jimmyj]

I can't find any definitive info on how manufacturers that Cure with Celery Juice, Nitrate, get it to convert to the active Nitrite. Every source found from a Google Search, talks about Bacteria actively converting Nitrate to Nitrite. So...Are the Manufacturers of " Uncured" Hot Dogs adding the necessary Bacteria, letting it do it's job in a mid 50°F chamber, than smoking and cooking the Dogs? I wonder how long the Bacteria take to work? It must be a Fast process as Hot Dog production must happen very quicky to maximize profit. Anybody know more about how Uncured, Celery Juice Nitrate, Meats are produced efficiently?...JJ

 

[daveomak]

(257) Salt, Cures, and Vegetable Powders---Part 3: Celery Juice Powder - YouTube

Celery Juice Powder Used as Nitrite Substitute in Sliced Vacuum‐Packaged Turkey Bologna Stored at 4C for 10 Weeks Under Retail Display Light (wiley.com)

Sausage Operations askFSIS Questions (usda.gov)

 

[PolishDeli]

Florida Food Products Inc is one company that manufacturers cjp.
The product name is Veg Stable 504.
They use strains of Staphylococcus carnosus to ferment the celery juice. Once fermented, the juice is pasteurized, evaporated, and mixed with salt and stabilizers.
It's complicated enough that'd I be surprised if hot dog manufacturers want this process built into thier assembly lines. They likely just source it.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Florida Food Products Inc is one company that manufacturers cjp.
The product name is Veg Stable 504.
They use strains of Staphylococcus carnosus to ferment the celery juice. Once fermented, the juice is pasteurized, evaporated, and mixed with salt and stabilizers.
It's complicated enough that'd I be surprised if hot dog manufacturers want this process built into thier assembly lines. They likely just source it.

This goes with everything I’ve read. The celery juice is fermented which in turn converts nitrate to nitrite Then dried to a powder. So the package can say “nitrate free”

Seem Butcher Packer has discontinued the 504

 

[chef jimmyj]

Thanks Dave, it makes sense that the Nitrate is converted. Don't know why I thought that basic Dehydrated Celery Juice, direct from the plant, was what was used...JJ

 

[Lorenzoid]

The problem with your nitrate comments is,
1) nitrate cannot be used in bacon.
2) at refrigeration temperature, below 40*F nitrate is not reduced to nitrite.
3) we are talking in this thread, about bacon.

Nitrate is reduced to nitrite by lactobacillus and staphylococcus bacteria. These bacteria need to be in the 55*F range to be active. At refrigeration temperature, below 40*F they are inactive and cannot reduce nitrate. Never mention nitrate in a bacon thread.

Guilty as charged, and I apologize. This thread is indeed about bacon, and we risk confusing people by mentioning nitrates. Of course, I wasn't the one who brought up nitrate--my first comment was in reply to a mention of saltpeter (I noted that it is a nitrate) and a mention of celery extract in post #4. You're right that as far as the USDA is concerned, nitrates are not allowed in bacon.

 

[daveomak]

(260) Are Curing Salts Really Necessary? - YouTube

There is plenty of valuable information in this video...

 

[Fueling Around]

Hopefully the promise of USDA to regulate the labeling of non cured meats products by means of celery juice carries though.
I don't have much hope as policy is directed by not by common sense, but by dollar sense

 

[indaswamp]

Great info on this thread! Good work guys!