Cold smoke before smoking

[Jersey Jimbo]

I just tried it and it works great. I filled by smoke tube with hickory chips, cold smoked the wings for about an hour and a half. Then smoked wings as a test. They came out with a nice smoke flavor. Now I will do some ribs next then work up to a brisket and pork butt, have to figure how long to cold smoke each one for the smoked taste. To me this is a game changer, I was sorta unset that the pellet grills don't give that nice rich smoked flavor. But it does an amazing job smoking meats and fish.

 

[jimsmith]

Hi Jersey! I have also tried this with my pellet smokers. It produces a very rich and tender flavor in the meat. Recently, I bought my pellet grill which works outstanding.

 

[CFLJOHN512]

Interesting. Does your smoker not put out enough smoke? Do you like it really Smokey? Just trying to figure out why you’d do this? I’d watch the IT to make sure you’re out of the unsafe temps within a certain time.

 

[forktender]

You are likely in the danger zone on those wings.
They shouldn't be anywhere near 40* to start with then should be above 140* in the first hour or the bacteria can double to triple. So basically you want to make sure you put anything other than beef on cold below 40* than make sure you get it above 140* in the first hour, or you are at risk of getting people sick.

 

[TNJAKE]

That's not something I'd do either unless you can keep smoker below 40°

 

[Winterrider]

I use smoke tube or tray in my pellet grill at lower temps( ex. 225°) with about enough for an additional couple hrs smoke. That seems to work well for our liking.

 

[thirdeye]

You are likely in the danger zone on those wings.
They shouldn't be anywhere near 40* to start with then should be above 140* in the first hour or the bacteria can double to triple. So basically you want to make sure you put anything other than beef on cold below 40* than make sure you get it above 140* in the first hour, or you are at risk of getting people sick.

Where did you get the '... above 140° in the first hour'? I interpret the USDA rule as 40° to 140° in four hours.

 

[Inscrutable]

Where did you get the '... above 140° in the first hour'? I interpret the USDA rule as 40° to 140° in four hours.

I think Moses Malone must have written the guideline (Fo fo fo)
And just like their rings, have to engrave Fo, One-fo, fo.
(Never mind if you didn’t watch NBA in ‘83)

Yes, that’s what I’ve seen/believe also.

 

[daveomak]

I'm gonna add a bit of thought to this also....
Whole, intact muscle meats are considered sterile on the inside... So only the outside of the muscle is considered to have bacteria as long as the surface, skin in this instance, is not adulterated...
Sounds a bit crazy but, wings are whole muscle groups encased in skin... Once the exterior portion, of the wing, has reached

deg. F ... time
145 .........13.8 min
146 ...........11.5 min
148 ............7.7 min
150 ..........4.9 min
152 .......... 2.8 min
154 .........1.6 min
156............ 1 min
166 ............0 sec
Table C.2: Pasteurization times for a 7D reduction in Salmonella for chicken and turkey (FSIS, 2005).

any offending bacteria are killed and the meat "should" be safe to consume at this point...
I know no one is gonna eat a wing that's raw around the bone with crisp skin... but most of us would eat a prime rib that's got a nice crust and very rare in the middle...
This point is just food for thought....

Dave

 

[Inscrutable]

I'm gonna add a bit of thought to this also....
Whole, intact muscle meats are considered sterile on the inside... So only the outside of the muscle is considered to have bacteria as long as the surface, skin in this instance, is not adulterated...
Sounds a bit crazy but, wings are whole muscle groups encased in skin... Once the exterior portion, of the wing, has reached

deg. F ... time
145 .........13.8 min
146 ...........11.5 min
148 ............7.7 min
150 ..........4.9 min
152 .......... 2.8 min
154 .........1.6 min
156............ 1 min
166 ............0 sec
Table C.2: Pasteurization times for a 7D reduction in Salmonella for chicken and turkey (FSIS, 2005).

any offending bacteria are killed and the meat "should" be safe to consume at this point...
I know no one is gonna eat a wing that's raw around the bone with crisp skin... but most of us would eat a prime rib that's got a nice crust and very rare in the middle...
This point is just food for thought....

Dave

You are correct Dave about log reduction of the organisms themselves and eliminating risk of reproduction and infection ... and/but also have to consider that given enough time they will leave behind some other nasty biotoxins which are not going to be removed or mitigated as the cook progresses. Just being conservative, I would try to get the surface temp to the safe zone as soon as I could. (and do the smoke supplementation in that 140-180 temp range).
YMMV.

 

[daveomak]

and/but also have to consider that given enough time they will leave behind some other nasty biotoxins which are not going to be removed or mitigated as the cook progresses.

How much time ??? What's the temperature range they will survive in ?? And what biotoxins are you speaking of ???

 

[Inscrutable]

There are several types that produce enterotoxins. Most are not extremely heat resistant, but some are and survive cooking. Not sure how long they take to do it while in the unsafe zone. I’ll see if I can find a good read (if you want to wade thru the scientific treatises).

 

[Inscrutable]

Here’s one ...

Detection of Bacterial Toxins in Food

Kits for detection of bacterial toxins in foods - C. botulinum, Bacillus cereus and Staphylococcal toxin can be detected by ELISA, RPLA and lateral flow assays.

www.rapidmicrobiology.com

 

[daveomak]

What did I write that ticked you off ????

 

[Jersey Jimbo]

Now this bacteria stuff has me confused. It was 30-35 here when I did it. And I cooked them till the IT was 170 then turned it up and made the skin crisp. So, did we get lucky that no one got sick or am I reading this wrong.

 

[Jersey Jimbo]

Interesting. Does your smoker not put out enough smoke? Do you like it really Smokey? Just trying to figure out why you’d do this? I’d watch the IT to make sure you’re out of the unsafe temps within a certain time.

I do prefer the more smokey taste at times. And my pellet smoker does but it is a lighter smoke taste. And as cold as it was when I did it I'm sure it was cold till I fired up the smoker. But will have to read up on how long you can leave a piece of chicken or any meat out before cooking.

 

[Inscrutable]

What did I write that ticked you off ????

Hope you don’t mean me? Certainly not any problem here, it’s all good .... just exchanging info as we can.

 

[TNJAKE]

I do prefer the more smokey taste at times. And my pellet smoker does but it is a lighter smoke taste. And as cold as it was when I did it I'm sure it was cold till I fired up the smoker. But will have to read up on how long you can leave a piece of chicken or any meat out before cooking.

If it was that cold then I wouldn't worry. Would be more of a concern to me if it was warm outside and you left the chicken sitting in a smoker with nothing but a tube going before firing up the grill to cook

 

[thirdeye]

I do prefer the more smokey taste at times. And my pellet smoker does but it is a lighter smoke taste. And as cold as it was when I did it I'm sure it was cold till I fired up the smoker. But will have to read up on how long you can leave a piece of chicken or any meat out before cooking.

It's a combination of knowing when and how fast bacteria multiply, how you can stop bacteria from multiplying, and how you can kill the bacteria that did multiply. Above 40° bacteria will double every 20 minutes. So if you have 5 bacteria on a piece of chicken, at the end of hour 1 you would have 40. At the end of hour 2 you would have 300.

When the surface of whole muscle meats reaches 140° (or the internal temp of ground meat) multiplication of bacteria stops... but it's still alive and well. Now is when the chart that @daveomak posted above comes into play because it takes into account temperature and time expressed as a result of a logarithm often referred to as a log reduction. The higher of a log number, the higher percentage of pathogens are killed. A 5-log reduction means that 99.999% of bacteria will be killed. A 7-log number means that 99.99999% of bacteria will be killed.

Using a chicken wing as the example, when the surface temp reaches 150°, it will take 5 minutes at that temperature to kill 99.99999% of the surface bacteria. If you allow the internal temp of a chicken wing to reach 150°, and could hold that temperature for 5 minutes, the wing can be eaten because 99.99999% of the bacteria will be dead. The USDA does not keep log reduction numbers a secret, but they do like to publish safe numbers because they are easy to remember. This is why the USDA says to cook chicken to 165°, and if you look back at the chart it says 0 minutes of holding time is needed before eating. The problem is that 150° chicken, held for 5 minutes has a soft texture. But 156° chicken held at least 1 minute has a better mouth feel, and it's moist. Restaurants routinely take advantage of log reduction temps and time. If you are into sous vide, the same principle holds true.

 

[Jersey Jimbo]

It's a combination of knowing when and how fast bacteria multiply, how you can stop bacteria from multiplying, and how you can kill the bacteria that did multiply. Above 40° bacteria will double every 20 minutes. So if you have 5 bacteria on a piece of chicken, at the end of hour 1 you would have 40. At the end of hour 2 you would have 300.

When the surface of whole muscle meats reaches 140° (or the internal temp of ground meat) multiplication of bacteria stops... but it's still alive and well. Now is when the chart that @daveomak posted above comes into play because it takes into account temperature and time expressed as a result of a logarithm often referred to as a log reduction. The higher of a log number, the higher percentage of pathogens are killed. A 5-log reduction means that 99.999% of bacteria will be killed. A 7-log number means that 99.99999% of bacteria will be killed.

Using a chicken wing as the example, when the surface temp reaches 150°, it will take 5 minutes at that temperature to kill 99.99999% of the surface bacteria. If you allow the internal temp of a chicken wing to reach 150°, and could hold that temperature for 5 minutes, the wing can be eaten because 99.99999% of the bacteria will be dead. The USDA does not keep log reduction numbers a secret, but they do like to publish safe numbers because they are easy to remember. This is why the USDA says to cook chicken to 165°, and if you look back at the chart it says 0 minutes of holding time is needed before eating. The problem is that 150° chicken, held for 5 minutes has a soft texture. But 156° chicken held at least 1 min
So by cooking internal temp to 170 it will be safe am I right