Acceptable levels of nitrate in Tender Quick or Celery Powder vs. Prague #2

[Hamdrew]

Is the nitrate content simply much lower in TQ and CP than the amount in #2 cure? Or is it a trial/error or "better safe than sorry" thing where we don't know well enough?

I have never used TQ, but the meat i've cured with celery powder is inexplicably better than using cure #1. It may very well have just been better luck on the smoker. I'd assume that using some amount of nitrate would make it last longer in the fridge; If enough moisture was lost during smoking, perhaps very long?

 

[daveomak]

Nitrate does not cure meat at refrigeration temperatures.. The bacteria required for nitrate breakdown is not active... Meat temps above~50F is required...

 

[smokin peachey]

Is the nitrate content simply much lower in TQ and CP than the amount in #2 cure? Or is it a trial/error or "better safe than sorry" thing where we don't know well enough?

I have never used TQ, but the meat i've cured with celery powder is inexplicably better than using cure #1. It may very well have just been better luck on the smoker. I'd assume that using some amount of nitrate would make it last longer in the fridge; If enough moisture was lost during smoking, perhaps very long?

I agree meats that get the celery juice powder treatment are inexplicably better then curing with cure 1.

 

[Hamdrew]

Nitrate does not cure meat at refrigeration temperatures.. The bacteria required for nitrate breakdown is not active... Meat temps above~50F is required...

I could easily be mistaken but I thought nitrate (before conversion) is still a preservative against some bacteria. The above 50*F and into room temp, outside of curing chambers, as I understand it, IS a trial and error science based on centuries of meat preservation. I'm not really wondering about "proper" long term/cure #2, ultimately just why nitrates are used and considered acceptable for short cures in Tender Quick, Celery Powder etc. yet prague #2 is almost never used.

 

[DanMcG]

Hamdrew, could you share the label for your celery powder, I like to see what it has for nitrates/ nitrites.

 

[Hamdrew]

Hamdrew, could you share the label for your celery powder, I like to see what it has for nitrates/ nitrites.

Sure it is this stuff:

 

[DanMcG]

thanks. the 508 has only nitrite. No nitrates.

 

[DanMcG]

Tender quick and #2 both have nitrites to do the curing at safe temp's for ya.

 

[Hamdrew]

thanks. the 508 has only nitrite. No nitrates.

I was unsure about that. I'd (possibly incorrectly) remembered reading this-
"This product is used as a natural way to cure your products. Celery is juiced, then fermented to covert (reduce) some of the nitrate to nitrite. After the juice is fermented it is tumble dried, then its nitrite content is measured. Once the nitrite content is found the powder is standardized by bulking with sea salt (much the same way cure is). This process is done after ever harvest, as the nitrite content varies from batch to batch, but will consistently be standardized to the same ppm for consistency. It does not impart a celery flavor to your product. This is the industry standard for natural nitrite cures, and is used commercially by many famous Salumeria’ in the US. "
however I see now that is for a different supplier's "508-30k".

I figure there's little chance of it like any proprietary seasoning, but has Tender Quick's nitrate content ever been stated?

 

[SmokinEdge]

but has Tender Quick's nitrate content ever been stated?

Right on the bag. 0.5% nitrite and 0.5% nitrate.

 

[Hamdrew]

Thanks SmokinEdge ! Wouldn't that mean a higher level of nitrate when using TQ than using cure #2, though? I am still confused as to why its nitrates are permissible (vs using cure 2 for short cures/brines).

 

[indaswamp]

Thanks SmokinEdge ! Wouldn't that mean a higher level of nitrate when using TQ than using cure #2, though? I am still confused as to why its nitrates are permissible (vs using cure 2 for short cures/brines).

General rule of thumb for curing in general is that nitrites are used when the curing will be done in 30 days or less. Nitrates are used in combination with nitrites for longer time frames.

 

[smokin peachey]

Sure it is this stuff:
View attachment 507333

Is that from the great folks at butcher packer?

 

[Hamdrew]

Is that from the great folks at butcher packer?

Indeed it is

indaswamp I realize that, I am ultimately just wondering why TQ's residual nitrates are considered acceptable whereas Cure #2 is virtually never used for short-term cures.

 

[daveomak]

I could easily be mistaken but I thought nitrate (before conversion) is still a preservative against some bacteria. The above 50*F and into room temp, outside of curing chambers, as I understand it, IS a trial and error science based on centuries of meat preservation. I'm not really wondering about "proper" long term/cure #2, ultimately just why nitrates are used and considered acceptable for short cures in Tender Quick, Celery Powder etc. yet prague #2 is almost never used.

NITRATES are NOT acceptable for short term curing.....
The science is NOT trial and error...
Centuries of meat preservation did NOT have refrigeration....

Click on this link and read what it has to say... There are hundreds of papers on nitrite and nitrate in food preservation...
index.php (meatinstitute.org)

 

[SmokinEdge]

Thanks SmokinEdge ! Wouldn't that mean a higher level of nitrate when using TQ than using cure #2, though? I am still confused as to why its nitrates are permissible (vs using cure 2 for short cures/brines).

Cure #2 has 1.0% nitrate. TQ has 0.5% nitrate.
so TQ has half as much nitrate as does cure #2. Although, you apply more TQ than cure #2. There really isn’t anything wrong with using cure #2 for short curing, unless it’s bacon. USDA says no nitrates can be used in bacon, thus Morton salt states on their website not to use TQ or the “sugar” cure on bacon.

I have said for a long time that TQ is out dated in many ways. Mostly because the vast majority of us use refrigeration to perform our curing duties. Nitrates do not cure directly, but nitrites do and do well at refrigeration temps. So even if you want to do salami in Umai casings in the refrigerator , I would only use cure #1, however if you are making salami in a curing chamber at 59*F then for sure use cure #2.

As to why celery extract can be used,
1) nitrate is naturally occurring and not added to the celery.
2) most all of it has been fermented, those lactic bacteria can convert nitrate to nitrite. So no nitrates are actually being used.
3) celery is considered a flavoring, not curing agent.

 

[daveomak]

Thanks SmokinEdge ! Wouldn't that mean a higher level of nitrate when using TQ than using cure #2, though? I am still confused as to why its nitrates are permissible (vs using cure 2 for short cures/brines).

The USDA could not, in good conscience, put Morton's out of business, when it came to nitrates in meats BECAUSE, nitrates pose NO health risk in the quantities in Morton's products..
Some vegetables have more nitrates than Morton's Tender Quick, in the quantities recommended..

 

[Hamdrew]

If TQ has the same level of nitrite and nitrate, vs. the 6.25:1 in cure #2, I'd figure that means that the appropriate amount of TQ for short-term curing = more nitrate than using cure #2? I realize that sodium nitrate alone is not suitable for curing, and that many vegetables contain more nitrates. Also, many junk foods I enjoy, hotdogs and some pepperoni for example. I would guess that there is at least SOME subtle difference in flavor from the nitrate when using #2 vs #1.

The trial-and-error I was referring to was just about pre-refridgeration, that it is often a gamble when not using a set/stable curing chamber, and as is still sometimes done when making charcuterie. I only mentioned it to clarify that I am NOT asking about long-term curing, but why cure #2 is almost never used. I am under the impression that it is simply considered an unnecessary risk/health concern

 

[indaswamp]

Hamdrew- you have to understand the history behind the creation of Morton's tender quick. It was formulated as a multi functional cure for anything from sausages to bacon, hams to summer sausages.... back in the day when everyone processed their pigs in the fall on the farm.

There were a lot of recipes developed specifically for it's use and some people still follow them out of tradition. Which is why Morton's is still around today.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Hamdrew- you have to understand the history behind the creation of Morton's tender quick. It was formulated as a multi functional cure for anything from sausages to bacon, hams to summer sausages.... back in the day when everyone processed their pigs in the fall on the farm.

There were a lot of recipes developed specifically for it's use and some people still follow them out of tradition. Which is why Morton's is still around today.

True
Also in those days, Morton’s TQ was a revolutionary proprietary cure blend that included Nitrites for “quick” curing. You could cure small cutlets or poultry in the kitchen. This was huge. This was also a time when the dominant cure method was Potassium Nitrate (saltpeter) and salt. So yes, in its day it was the stuff to get. Today, not so much. Technology marches forward.