Acceptable levels of nitrate in Tender Quick or Celery Powder vs. Prague #2

[Hamdrew]

Technology marches forward.

Yet many hot dogs remain the same, LOL. On a serious note, though, isn't a good smoke ring (i.e. nitrate absorption) desired? In any case, I am going to eventually try cure 1 vs cure 2 vs celery powder, maybe even order some tender quick; possibly sooner than later as boneless loins are on sale for 1.50/lb here

 

[SmokinEdge]

Yet many hot dogs remain the same, LOL. On a serious note, though, isn't a good smoke ring (i.e. nitrate absorption) desired? In any case, I am going to eventually try cure 1 vs cure 2 vs celery powder, maybe even order some tender quick; possibly sooner than later as boneless loins are on sale for 1.50/lb here

You seem to blur the line a bit between Nitrate (NaNo3) and Nitrite (NaNo2) here is how this chemically works.

Nitrate (NaNo3) is converted to Nitrite (NaNo2) the nitrite then reacts with protein in the meat and converts to Nitrous acid (HNO2) that converts to Nitric Oxide (NO) Nitric Oxide bonds with myoglobin and becomes nitrosomyoglobin thats the pink/red color in cured meat. The Nitric Acid is what takes care of botulism. This is how that part of curing occurs.

Now as far as the pink ring in bbq meat goes, it’s the Nitric Oxide released in the burning of wood that fixes itself to the myoglobin and creates the pink ring When smoking meat. Carbon monoxide can do this as well, but will fade once exposed to oxygen.

Just remember that Nitrate (NaNo3) cannot convert to Nitrite (NaNo2) unless temps are above 45*F and sufficient numbers of micrococci and lactobacilli bacteria are present. Otherwise no curing will occur.

 

[indaswamp]

One thing I would like to mention is that nitrate (NO3) is not recommended for use when making bacon or any other cured product that will be fried over high heat. This is to reduce nitrousamine formation. The USDA does not allow commercial producers to add nitrate to bacon. I don't recommend it either....for smoke sausage either if it will be sliced and fried for inclusion in gumbos, jambalayas and such.

 

[Hamdrew]

You seem to blur the line a bit between Nitrate (NaNo3) and Nitrite (NaNo2) here is how this chemically works.

Nitrate (NaNo3) is converted to Nitrite (NaNo2) the nitrite then reacts with protein in the meat and converts to Nitric acid (HNO2) that converts to Nitric Oxide (NO) Nitric Oxide bonds with myoglobin and becomes nitrosomyoglobin thats the pink/red color in cured meat. The Nitric Acid is what takes care of botulism. This is how that part of curing occurs.

Now as far as the pink ring in bbq meat goes, it’s the Nitric Oxide released in the burning of wood that fixes itself to the myoglobin and creates the pink ring When smoking meat. Carbon monoxide can do this as well, but will fade once exposed to oxygen.

Just remember that Nitrate (NaNo3) cannot convert to Nitrite (NaNo2) unless temps are above 45*F and sufficient numbers of micrococci and lactobacilli bacteria are present. Otherwise no curing will occur.

I thought nitrate was formed somewhere(s) in the decomposition of nitric acid and nitric oxide. I do know that nitrate won't be converted under refrigeration, and was trying to clarify TQ's general "acceptability" vs short-term cure #2 use (or even fried veggies) and whether or not nitrate itself has some preservative qualities (given it's used in hot dogs etc.)

 

[SmokinEdge]

I thought nitrate was formed somewhere(s) in the decomposition of nitric acid and nitric oxide.

Are you serious? I just explained this.
nitric acid and nitric oxide are formed FROM NITRITE.
And Nitrite is formed FROM NITRATE.

 

[Killa J]

What would be the reason to use the Veg Cure instead of Cure #1? To be able to claim no added nitrates/uncured or is there another reason? Sorry to derail the scientific discussion.

 

[SmokinEdge]

and was trying to clarify TQ's general "acceptability" vs short-term cure #2 use (or even fried veggies

This is a good question. TQ has ”grandfathered” in is my best explanation. The USDA has banned nitrate being added to bacon only, and Morton has since posted on their website not to use TQ for bacon. The celery thing is allowed because no nitrates/nitrites are added to the celery, therefore, by USDA definition celery is not a curing agent, only a flavor additive.
You can’t even buy Sodium Nitrate in Canada, it’s completely banned there.

 

[SmokinEdge]

What would be the reason to use the Veg Cure instead of Cure #1? To be able to claim no added nitrates/uncured or is there another reason? Sorry to derail the scientific discussion.

Correct, it is a loop hole for anti-nitrate people to still have their bacon.

 

[Hamdrew]

Are you serious? I just explained this.
nitric acid and nitric oxide are formed FROM NITRITE.
And Nitrite is formed FROM NITRATE.

Yes I am serious, I THOUGHT- as in past tense- before you corrected me (and thank you for that correction). Because of this quick search/study-
The bioactivity of nitric oxide is partly regulated by its rapid oxidation to nitrite (NO2−) or, in the presence of oxyhemoglobin, to nitrate (NO3−). I realize that the in-vivo interaction could easily be, and apparently is, different. Again I know that nitrate is used in long term cures since it forms nitrite, but am wondering why nitrates are used in hot dogs and some lunch meats if there is literally no perceived benefit.

As for using veg cure, it seems most commonly used for that b/s "no nitrites/nitrates added", but appears to have other benefits for some people who don't tolerate cure #1/2 well. Personally I just find it to taste better like I said. Sucks that it is so much pricier than regular cure, so I have been saving it solely for belly bacon.

 

[indaswamp]

Correct, it is a loop hole for anti-SYNTHETIC nitrate people to still have their bacon.

Fixed it for you...
Nitrate is nitrate.....it is 100% chemically the same.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Yes I am serious, I THOUGHT- as in past tense- before you corrected me (and thank you for that correction). Because of this quick search/study-
The bioactivity of nitric oxide is partly regulated by its rapid oxidation to nitrite (NO2−) or, in the presence of oxyhemoglobin, to nitrate (NO3−). I realize that the in-vivo interaction could easily be, and apparently is, different. Again I know that nitrate is used in long term cures since it forms nitrite, but am wondering why nitrates are used in hot dogs and some lunch meats if there is literally no perceived benefit.

As for using veg cure, it seems most commonly used for that b/s "no nitrites/nitrates added", but appears to have other benefits for some people who don't tolerate cure #1/2 well. Personally I just find it to taste better like I said. Sucks that it is so much pricier than regular cure, so I have been saving it solely for belly bacon.

@Hamdrew ,
you are talking in circles that keep bringing you back to using Nitrates for short cure times. Even after having it all explained to you. One excuse after another as to why you SHOULD. Well, tear it up buddy. I’ve tried to explain it all. I don’t recommend where you are going.

 

[Fueling Around]

One thing I would like to mention is that nitrate (NO3) is not recommended for use when making bacon or any other cured product that will be fried over high heat. This is to reduce nitrousamine formation. The USDA does not allow commercial producers to add nitrate to bacon. I don't recommend it either....for smoke sausage either if it will be sliced and fried for inclusion in gumbos, jambalayas and such.

Commercial cured meat generally prohibits use of nitrates. Residual nitrates in cooked meats turn into nitrosamines (no U)
Nitrosamines is on the carcinogenic hot list which is very true and got cured meats on the bad list for many years.
This is also why injected meats with nitrites requires adding sodium eythrobate (SE). SE neutralizes any residual nitrites.
No evidence that residual nitrites convert to nitrosamines, but politics get involved...

Remember a majority of the USDA policy is political not practical.

What would be the reason to use the Veg Cure instead of Cure #1? To be able to claim no added nitrates/uncured or is there another reason? Sorry to derail the scientific discussion.

@SmokinEdge gave the quick answer.
Some state that naturally derived nitrAtes is better than synthetic.
I don't have a clue.
Thankfully USDA labeling is supposed to get updated and the celery powdered products will be listed as "cured" to stop deceiving the populous.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Commercial cured meat generally prohibits use of nitrates. Residual nitrates in cooked meats turn into nitrosamines (no U)
Nitrosamines is on the carcinogenic hot list which is very true and got cured meats on the bad list for many years.
This is also why injected meats with nitrites requires adding sodium eythrobate (SE). SE neutralizes any residual nitrites.
No evidence that residual nitrites convert to nitrosamines, but politics get involved...

Remember a majority of the USDA policy is political not practical.


@SmokinEdge gave the quick answer.
Some state that naturally derived nitrAtes is better than synthetic.
I don't have a clue.
Thankfully USDA labeling is supposed to get updated and the celery powdered products will be listed as "cured" to stop deceiving the populous.

Only problem with that logic is that, the celery, broccoli, Kahle, spinach, beats whatever all get the nitrate from the soil. The farmer applies synthetic man made fertilizer on the crops. And even if it’s cow sh$t that cow ate corn raised with the same man made fertilizer. This nitrate thing is just going in circles. It’s all derived from the same source. But this product is good and that product is bad. The American people are constantly lied to all for profit share. No real problem as long as you can think for yourself. Apparently most cannot.

 

[PolishDeli]

Nitrate (NO3-) and Nitrite (NO2-) are ions.
They form ionic compouds.
e.g., sodium nitrite (NaNO2) and potassium nitrite (KNO2).

These molecules have very different weights.
NaNO2 = 69g/mol
KNO2 = 85g/mol

Why does this matter?
Because, when we calculate ppm levels for curing, we are really calculating a wt%.

If you use the same ppm for KNO2 as for NaNO2, you get a different number of NO2- ions. Therefore, the meat gets cured to different levels.

What ioinic compound(s) is/are present in CJP and how much?
Answer: Unknown

 

[indaswamp]

 

[PolishDeli]

I thought nitrate was formed somewhere(s) in the decomposition of nitric acid and nitric oxide.

@Hamdrew You're not wrong. NO does convert back to NO3. NO2 does also. (Its called oxidation, not decomposition)

BUT that part of the Nitrogen cycle does not occur when curing meat. Here, we really only care about the nitrogen half-cycle summarized by @SmokinEdge
(Though, it is nitrous acid [HNO2] - not nitric acid [HNO3] - that gets formed along the way. Nitric acid is pretty nasty stuff.)

Also, it looks like you're quoting from an article in Anesthesiology. Breathing and blood flow play a roll there.
Searching for nitate/nitrite info, you could also easily end up in the field of Environmental Science. In that case, the Nitrogen cycle is driven by animals, fungus, bacteria, and lightning.

Mind your sources. The Anesthesiology article is legit, but not relevant. You need a meat science source.

 

[indaswamp]

Great point PolishDeli!

 

[SmokinEdge]

.

 

[PolishDeli]

@SmokinEdge ,

I was to writing to @Hamdrew .
The following statement he provided appears to come from Anesthesiology December 2010, Vol. 113, 1460–1475.

The bioactivity of nitric oxide is partly regulated by its rapid oxidation to nitrite (NO2−) or, in the presence of oxyhemoglobin, to nitrate (NO3−)

I singled you out in my response to him, because you provided a good summary of the Nitrogen cycle - as it pertains to curing meat.

 

[Hamdrew]

@Hamdrew ,
you are talking in circles that keep bringing you back to using Nitrates for short cure times. Even after having it all explained to you. One excuse after another as to why you SHOULD. Well, tear it up buddy. I’ve tried to explain it all. I don’t recommend where you are going.

I was just confused as to why TQ is ever still used, as well as nitrates in hot dogs and vegetables etc. @Fueling Around gave the answer I was looking for re: other required additives.

@PolishDeli I realized that the human body is at play, is what I meant by my previous comment "in vivo could and apparently does change it". I do really appreciate your taking time to explain in depth, all this is very interesting to me.

@SmokinEdge I would never recommend it for those reasons, but yes I am going to try to compare to see if there is any difference in flavor, once. The rest of my cure #2 will be used for its intended purpose in the proper curing conditions and with the proper bacteria etc. when needed. (I am particularly excited to try koji bacteria after reading reports of a pork tenderloin finishing/full moisture loss in four days!)