160 temp question

[WildmanWilson]

When making summer sausage you start at a low temperature and slowly bump it up. Since it has curing salt it’s made safe. So my question is why does jerky need to be pre heated to 160 before it’s supposedly safe? Wouldn’t the curing salt in jerky make it safe if dried in a similar manner as summer sausage?

My dehydrator takes several hours to reach 160 if loaded with cold meat but that’s pretty much the way the sausage is done and it’s safe. Also seems the flavor and texture is never as good when preheat in the oven.... Thoughts.

 

[bill ace 350]

When making summer sausage you start at a low temperature and slowly bump it up. Since it has curing salt it’s made safe. So my question is why does jerky need to be pre heated to 160 before it’s supposedly safe? Wouldn’t the curing salt in jerky make it safe if dried in a similar manner as summer sausage?

My dehydrator takes several hours to reach 160 if loaded with cold meat but that’s pretty much the way the sausage is done and it’s safe. Also seems the flavor and texture is never as good when preheat in the oven.... Thoughts.

You can start cold, provided it was cured properly

 

[daveomak]

Cure takes care of the botulism threat, 160 F takes care of the pathogens cure does NOT attack... Salmonella, shiga toxin, etc... especially in ground meats... contamination can come from anywhere...
Check out pathogens in this paper......
https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/assets/2016/09/emergingpathogensinmeatandpoultry.pdf


....

 

[daveomak]

Wilson, morning..... Meats that are heated slowly and dried, bacteria etc. can enter a state of "suspended animation" of sorts, only to be revived in a warm moist environment like your gut... Then you get sick... Sooooo, preheating to 160+ while wet, kills them, and continued drying at a lower temperature, is not a problem...

 

[bill ace 350]

You will be safe putting the cured jerky into a cold dehydrator and the drying it, provided it reaches the proper internal temperature.

 

[daveomak]

You will be safe putting the cured jerky into a cold dehydrator and the drying it, provided it reaches the proper internal temperature.

Wrong....

Safe internal temperature, for safe jerky is 160+ F...... while it is wet....
...

 

[daveomak]

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...at-preparation/jerky-and-food-safety/ct_index
Why is temperature important when making jerky? Illnesses due to Salmonella and E. coli O157:H7 from homemade jerky raise questions about the safety of traditional drying methods for making beef and venison jerky. The USDA Meat and Poultry Hotline's current recommendation for making jerky safely is to heat meat to 160 °F and poultry to 165 °F before the dehydrating process. This step assures that any bacteria present will be destroyed by wet heat. But most dehydrator instructions do not include this step, and a dehydrator may not reach temperatures high enough to heat meat to 160 °F or 165 °F.

After heating to 160 °F or 165 °F, maintaining a constant dehydrator temperature of 130 to 140 °F during the drying process is important because:

• the process must be fast enough to dry food before it spoils; and
• it must remove enough water that microorganisms are unable to grow.

Why is it a food safety concern to dry meat without first heating it to 160 °F?
The danger in dehydrating meat and poultry without cooking it to a safe temperature first is that the appliance will not heat the meat to 160 °F and poultry to 165 °F — temperatures at which bacteria are destroyed — before the dehydrating process. After drying, bacteria become much more heat resistant.

Within a dehydrator or low-temperature oven, evaporating moisture absorbs most of the heat. Thus, the meat itself does not begin to rise in temperature until most of the moisture has evaporated. Therefore, when the dried meat temperature finally begins to rise, the bacteria have become more heat resistant and are more likely to survive. If these surviving bacteria are pathogenic, they can cause foodborne illness to those consuming the jerky.

 

[WildmanWilson]

Yeah I’ve read all the rules of jerky making but that doesn’t explain why summer sausage is cooked totally different. It’s put in cold at 100 degrees and slowly bumped up over several hours to an internal temp of 155 which can take 8-10 hours.

Seems jerky is supposed to hit 160 first then dried. It just doesn’t make sense that one is okay but not the other. Both have cure #1.

Also jerky has been air dried for hundreds of year without hitting 160 first.

The last batch I put in the oven to pre heat to 160 causes much of the marinade to drip out of the meat and was much less flavorful.

 

[bill ace 350]

Yeah I’ve read all the rules of jerky making but that doesn’t explain why summer sausage is cooked totally different. It’s put in cold at 100 degrees and slowly bumped up over several hours to an internal temp of 155 which can take 8-10 hours.

Seems jerky is supposed to hit 160 first then dried. It just doesn’t make sense that one is okay but not the other. Both have cure #1.

Also jerky has been air dried for hundreds of year without hitting 160 first.

The last batch I put in the oven to pre heat to 160 causes much of the marinade to drip out of the meat and was much less flavorful.

I don't know the answer.

Bottom line is, properly cured and brought to correct temperature and you will be fine.

Remember, the USDA publishes recommendations.

You can read them yourself. They even make a distinction between cured and uncured. Good stuff

 

[daveomak]

Yeah I’ve read all the rules of jerky making but that doesn’t explain why summer sausage is cooked totally different. It’s put in cold at 100 degrees and slowly bumped up over several hours to an internal temp of 155 which can take 8-10 hours.

Seems jerky is supposed to hit 160 first then dried. It just doesn’t make sense that one is okay but not the other. Both have cure #1.

Also jerky has been air dried for hundreds of year without hitting 160 first.

The last batch I put in the oven to pre heat to 160 causes much of the marinade to drip out of the meat and was much less flavorful.

Read post #7...

You are trying to mix apples and oranges... SS is a moist meat when finished... Jerky is dried when finished...

 

[WildmanWilson]

Read post #7...

You are trying to mix apples and oranges... SS is a moist meat when finished... Jerky is dried when finished...

Ok but they both start out moist. Technically the only difference is jerky is dried further. If jerky is ground it’s exactly the same other than the finished moisture content. It also would seem that the critical time for killing bacteria is at the beginning. So my question continues to be why don’t people get sick from the summer sausage cooking process? The sausage is cold for a long time and only reaches 155 after hours in the cooker. We are told bacteria is more resistant when heated at the end of the process rather than the beginning. Just goes against what sausage cookers are doing vs jerky makers.

 

[daveomak]

Sausage and jerky are apples and oranges...

 

[WildmanWilson]

Sausage and jerky are apples and oranges...

Wrong. They can be exactly the same except for dryness. Ground jerky and snack sticks are exactly the same product. Whole muscle is actually more safe than ground in which the bacteria is mixed in. Hence the reason why we cook burgers more thoroughly than a steak for instance.

Meat is meat. Jerky or sausage. Bacteria doesn’t know the difference between the two.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Jerky and preserving meat through salt, only, and air or sun drying was being done a thousand years before the USDA. Reading the studies that led to the recommendation to heat to 160 first, seem contradictory to other types of cured products and pasteurization charts. My best guess...Summer Sausage, and such, typically gets refrigerated. The USDA regs assume you are going to be drying Very Slowly, 24 hours vs 10 for sausages, are not keeping finished jerky in the refer and you may not have reduced the water activity to a point that Bacteria and/or Spores can't survive. So to cover everyone A$$ they recommend heating to 160 first...JJ

 

[WildmanWilson]

Jerky and preserving meat through salt, only, and air or sun drying was being done a thousand years before the USDA. Reading the studies that led to the recommendation to heat to 160 first, seem contradictory to other types of cured products and pasteurization charts. My best guess...Summer Sausage typically gets refrigerated. The USDA regs assume you are not keeping jerky in the refer and you may not have reduced the water activity to a point that Bacteria and/or Spores can't survive. So to cover everyone A$$ they recommend heating to 160 first...JJ

I can agree with that. The same reason they recommend cooking hamburger to 160 yet you can go to a restaurant and some will ask how you want it cooked. It’s extra precaution.

I had made jerky straight in the dehydrator for years and not once did anyone get sick. We didn’t even use curing salt back then. No one I’ve ever known got sick from it either. Heck, seems more people get sick from lettuce than jerky of any kind. I do always refrigerate my jerk as well or freeze for later.

But refrigeration doesn’t kill any bacteria that’s already in it. Just slows it from spoiling.

 

[bill ace 350]

I can agree with that. The same reason they recommend cooking hamburger to 160 yet you can go to a restaurant and some will ask how you want it cooked. It’s extra precaution.

I had made jerky straight in the dehydrator for years and not once did anyone get sick. We didn’t even use curing salt back then. No one I’ve ever known got sick from it either. Heck, seems more people get sick from lettuce than jerky of any kind. I do always refrigerate my jerk as well or freeze for later.

But refrigeration doesn’t kill any bacteria that’s already in it. Just slows it from spoiling.

I used to make it without cure also, never got ill.

I use cure now, because it undeniably helps safe guard the food.

The USDA recommendations are just that.

How many commercial jerky seasonings with cure mention the 160 before drying technique.

Some people post the USDA information to be helpful, others to support their own belief that they are "someone important" on this forum and what they regurgitate is gospel.

 

[chef jimmyj]

As much as possible we preach and follow USDA guidelines for our members and ESPECIALLY non-members benefit. Is it thumping the USDA Gospel? Yes. Members, new and old, come here to learn and eventually teach. Most Newbies are very interested in smoking and curing meat and Sausage but have no clue where to begin. If I had a $1 for every time I bailed out a guy or gal, whose post started, " I found this cured sausage recipe online. It called for X Tablespoons of Cure #1. Is that right? " We teach measuring Cure by weight and even show how to figure the USDA Part Per Million recommendations for safety. The same goes for other USDA guidlines on smoking Temperature, on cooking Turkey safely and in this case, the safest method for preparing Jerky.
To get back to non-members, there are hundreds of Lurkers on SMF at any given time. If all they ever saw was " Grandma did it this way and nobody died. "Or, " Uncle Bob only used Salt and nobody got sick, " the lurkers would never see what is CURRENTLY the safest method. Example, in Grandma's day she and the family worked for their food. They had hands in the dirt of the garden, they raised the animals including mucking out the stalls, hands on moving the animals around and slaughtering these animals. Those past generations were strong, healthy and exposed to a huge variety of bacteria. They developed strong immune systems and rarely got food borne illnesses. The modern 2+ generations, buy Groceries and Packaged Meat at a store. They get and take Antibiotics for every Sniffle or mild Cough they get. Then add Presevatives, Antibacterial Soap and practically Bathing in Purell after any public contact, and you have a million people with weak immune systems, food allergies and Super Bugs that are killing children and older folks and the rest of the family spends weeks in the hospital from eating....Freakin Lettuce or a Medium Hamburger!
Yes, we can be fanatical about USDA guidelines, temperatures, and measuring Cure #'s 1 and 2 but it is for good reason. We don't ever want to hear a recipe or tutorial of our's made your family sick!
Yes, there are Heritage methods of cooking and curing. Yes, those of us that know exactly what we are doing and the risks envolved don't follow every guideline to the letter. We are happy to discuss such things, but you will always see one or more veterans of SMF lay down the currently safest method for getting things done based on USDA guidelines and modern practices...JJ

 

[daveomak]

Some people post the USDA information to be helpful, others to support their own belief that they are "someone important" on this forum and what they regurgitate is gospel.

Don't keep us in the dark on this subject... Tell us who you think is doing this, to support their ego ...


...

 

[fajitapot]

We teach measuring Cure by weight and even show how to figure the USDA Part Per Million recommendations for safety.

No disrespect, but I frequently (more often than not) see people post recipes using volumetric measurements here and find it disappointing. Do the old timers just figure their teaspoons are "close enough"? I learned to write recipes in percentages and often wonder why others don't.

 

[chef jimmyj]

No disrespect, but I frequently (more often than not) see people post recipes using volumetric measurements here and find it disappointing. Do the old timers just figure their teaspoons are "close enough"? I learned to write recipes in percentages and often wonder why others don't.

The USDA recommended amounts of cure #1 in Ppm, 120 for Bacon and 156 for other items, and the associated weights, in grams, to get there are optimal. They provide a wide margin of error for things like folks that boil cure in a Brine ( it dissipates ), have inaccurate scales ( weigh too much or too little ) or cure for shorter than recommended days ( higher concentrations disperse a bit faster into the muscle ). In actual use, a broad range of cure weights will get the job done. 40-80 ppm will set the color and help preserve the meat but do not offer much bacterial control. 80 to 200 ppm set the color and kill or inhibit bacteria of concern like Clostridium Botulinum, Listeria and to some extent Salmonella. For Dry Curing with a Dry application of cure at 625 ppm can be used. So, if 1 level teaspoon of Cure #1, in 5 pounds of meat, will get you 156 ppm...Does it really matter if the Old Timer, as you put it, scoops a Heaping teaspoon or a Short teaspoon or even forgets and adds 2 teaspoons of Cure #1, there is no need for concern.
Volume measurement is ok for small amounts of meat or sausage mix, 5 to about 50 pounds, but beyond that, using volumetric measurement, errors start to become of more concern...JJ

BTW...This Old Timer uses both types of measurement, depending on the situatuation.