let the games begin .... i have a subjective question

[dls1]

 

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I don't know enough about sous vide safety to comment beyond if a risk exists at low temp smoking of ground, injected and BRT meat. The risk is likely there with sous vide. I know sausage is safe to sous vide because of its size. But I would not try to sous vide a meatloaf. Additionally , USDA and SMF Guidelines are based on " risk" factors not absolutes. What may only give me or you some gas may put grandma in the hospital...JJ

I'm curious as to what you would not do a meatloaf sous vide. I've done many over the past few years with excellent results and no safety issues whatsoever. As you're supposedly the forums food safety expert Is your statement, which sounds like an absolute, based on factual scientific evidence, or is it just personal opinion?

 

[daveomak]

Baldwin has some very good info about sous-vide.....

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

About the meat loaf....   I don't know BUT.....   I'm guessing, since ground meats has distributed all the pathogens to the inside of the meat, during the heating process they will be multiplying...   maybe more than can be considered safe...   

Whole muscle meats are considered "sterile" on the inside...   anywho....  see if you can find a reputable recipe for sous-vide ground meats...

 

[mr t 59874]

Safety issues of sous vide ground meats are addressed in the following. http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/08/the-food-lab-complete-guide-to-sous-vide-burger.html

T

 

[daveomak]

IMO, the Food Lab falls short of the guidelines set out by the FSIS...  The chart below is only for a 5 log reduction, which may be borderline for some ground meats...  and some folks with compromised immune systems...

I DO like their method...   I may try it but I definitely would sous-vide for a much longer time period..

FSIS Guidance on Safe Cooking of Non-Intact Meat Chops, Roasts, and Steaks

April 2009 Temp °F	Temp °C	Time for 5.0 log Reduction	Unit Time
130	54.4	86	min.
131	55.0	69	min.
132	55.6	55	min.
133	56.1	44	min.
134	56.7	35	min.
135	57.2	28	min.
136	57.8	22	min.
137	58.4	18	min.
138	58.9	14	min.
139	59.5	11	min.
140	60.0	9	min.
141	60.6	7	min.
142	61.1	6	min.
143	61.7	5	min.
144	62.2	4	min.
145	62.8	3	min.
146	63.3	130	sec.
147	63.9	103	sec.
148	64.4	82	sec.
149	65.0	65	sec.
150	65.6	52	sec.
151	66.1	41	sec.
152	66.7	33	sec.
153	67.2	26	sec.
154	67.8	21	sec.
155	68.3	17	sec.
156	68.9	14	sec.
157	69.4	11	sec.
158	70.0	0	sec.
159	70.6	0	sec.
160	71.1	0	sec.

 

[mr t 59874]

 
   I may try it but I definitely would sous-vide for a much longer time period..

As the chart shows, there is a cooking range in which one can apply common sense.

[h4]Sous-Vide Hamburger Temperature and Timing Chart[/h4][TOP]
Doneness	Temperature	Timing Range
Very Rare to Rare	115°F (46°C) to 123°F (51°C)	40 minutes to 2 1/2 hours
Medium-Rare	124°F (51°C) to 129°F (54°C)	40 minutes to 2 1/2 hours
Medium	130°F (54°C) to 137°F (58°C)	40 minutes to 4 hours (2 1/2 hours max if under 130°F/54°C)
Medium-Well	138°F (59°C) to 144°F (62°C)	40 minutes to 4 hours
Well Done	145°F (63°C) to 155°F (68°C)	40 minutes to 3 1/2 hours

The FSIS chart obviously is for time to pasteurize the meat. As you and I both know, we don’t always pasteurize our meat before we eat it.

 Food Lab recommends cooking even longer than the FSIS to pasteurize.

 With sous-vide methods, you have a bit more leeway as beef can be safely pasteurized at temperatures as low as 130°F if held for long enough. At 130°F, it takes 2 hours to safely pasteurize beef, while at 140°F, it takes only 12 minutes. Remember—these timeframes begin once the center  of the burger reaches pasteurization temperature, so it's a good idea to add an extra half hour to those times for any burger you plan on pasteurizing.

Pasteurization cannot safely take place lower than 130°F, so for this reason, I strongly recommend freshly grinding beef for sous-vide burgers you plan on serving rare to medium-rare.

 

[daveomak]

The chart you are referring to, in a FSIS chart that is a 7 D reduction for E. coli....   The chart I displayed is for a 5 D reduction....  

So, as is obvious, the times / temps are different... 

edit....   D represents decimal...   5D = .00001 reduction which means, if there are 1,000,000 (1 million) bacteria, a 5D reduction would be 10 bacteria after treatment...  or something like that..

The FSIS, as near as I can tell, promote a 7D reduction so folks with compromised immune systems and children, will be safe if they eat the product...

 

[mr t 59874]

 
The chart you are referring to, in a FSIS chart that is a 7 D reduction for E. coli....   The chart I displayed is for a 5 D reduction....  

Dave, that chart was pasted by mistake, my bad. LOL I edited the post to include the chart from Food Lab.

Like said above which would include those with compromised immune systems, common sense should be applied.

T

 

[chef jimmyj]

I'm curious as to what you would not do a meatloaf sous vide. I've done many over the past few years with excellent results and no safety issues whatsoever. As you're supposedly the forums food safety expert Is your statement, which sounds like an absolute, based on factual scientific evidence, or is it just personal opinion?

Scientific evidence or opinion? Both...If any meat is going to have a high bacterial load it is ground beef, fact. If meat is cooked at temps below 200 degrees, depending on the weight and dimensions, the center of the meat can be in the prime region of the danger zone, 80-100, in excess of 4 hours. In these conditions some bacteria can double or triple their numbers in under 1 hour,fact. I rarely make meat loaves less than 4 pounds of meat plus add-ons. Thats a lot to handle, bag and wait to cook SV when an hour at 400 and we eat,fact and opinion. The point of sous vide is tenderizing meat and even cooking to a desired lT. Since neither of these greatly enhance a meatloaf and you don't get that great crunchy crust, spending the time to SV a meatloaf is pointless for me,opinion. As far as my words being absolute...l just give the facts mixed with opinion based on over 20 years cooking professionally responsible for thousands of people safety and never made anyone sick. Evaluate my credibility then choose to follow or ignore what l put out.

I did a lot of dumb stuff in my youth until l was educated on how risky it was. Drank heavily and drove, didn't wear a seatbelt until my mid twenties, defrosted meat on the counter overnight and all day and thought nothing of eating food that sat out overnight. I know better now and just share what l have learned over the years...JJ

 

[noboundaries]

Scientific evidence or opinion? Both...If any meat is going to have a high bacterial load it is ground beef, fact. If meat is cooked at temps below 200 degrees, depending on the weight and dimensions, the center of the meat can be in the prime region of the danger zone, 80-100, in excess of 4 hours. In these conditions some bacteria can double or triple their numbers in under 1 hour,fact. I rarely make meat loaves less than 4 pounds of meat plus add-ons. Thats a lot to handle, bag and wait to cook SV when an hour at 400 and we eat,fact and opinion. The point of sous vide is tenderizing meat and even cooking to a desired lT. Since neither of these greatly enhance a meatloaf and you don't get that great crunchy crust, spending the time to SV a meatloaf is pointless for me,opinion. As far as my words being absolute...l just give the facts mixed with opinion based on over 20 years cooking professionally responsible for thousands of people safety and never made anyone sick. Evaluate my credibility then choose to follow or ignore what l put out.

I did a lot of dumb stuff in my youth until l was educated on how risky it was. Drank heavily and drove, didn't wear a seatbelt until my mid twenties, defrosted meat on the counter overnight and all day and thought nothing of eating food that sat out overnight. I know better now and just share what l have learned over the years...JJ

 

 

[lovethemeats]

Getting back to the original post made. I have done both bone in and not. They both come out tasting good and if there was a difference in taste. Then it was from other means during the rub and smoking process. The bone in my opinion does nothing for taste. But it looks good when you pull it from the meat and its clean. Showing the people that are going to be eating.

 

[lovethemeats]

With the thought of getting the meat as quick as possible to 140. What about a slow cooker? It takes a long time when set on low. Bacteria has a long time to gather and grow. I think I go with the pasteurization process stated before by Mr T. But you still have to maintain cleanliness when preparing any cut of meat. Just my thoughts.

 

[biaviian]

I'm a bone-in fan.  Going boneless just doesn't feel right to me.  It's like a second-rate piece of meat, in my head.

 

[daveomak]

With the thought of getting the meat as quick as possible to 140. What about a slow cooker? It takes a long time when set on low. Bacteria has a long time to gather and grow. I think I go with the pasteurization process stated before by Mr T. But you still have to maintain cleanliness when preparing any cut of meat. Just my thoughts.

LTM, afternoon...   "USUALLY" Slow cookers recipes state, "Start on high for "X minutes or hours" then turn to low or medium" depends on the slow cooker.  If not, they should...  the initial firing of a cooking process should make an attempt to kill surface bacteria.....   Another method is to "sear the meat on all sides" the put in the slow cooker on high for X" etc....  searing kills surface bacteria....  AND gives meats that great "BROWN MEAT" flavor that Ann Burrell loves so dearly...

 

[chef jimmyj]

With the thought of getting the meat as quick as possible to 140. What about a slow cooker? It takes a long time when set on low. Bacteria has a long time to gather and grow. I think I go with the pasteurization process stated before by Mr T. But you still have to maintain cleanliness when preparing any cut of meat. Just my thoughts.

With the thought of getting the meat as quick as possible to 140. What about a slow cooker? It takes a long time when set on low. Bacteria has a long time to gather and grow. I think I go with the pasteurization process stated before by Mr T. But you still have to maintain cleanliness when preparing any cut of meat. Just my thoughts.

The low setting on a slow cooker is usually about 190, a recommended safe cooking temp. So no issue using it...JJ

 

[lancep]

I think the only thing you miss out on with boneless is the satisfaction of pulling the bone clean with two fingers and doing the bone dance around the kitchen. Or maybe that's just me. Cook time, temp, and smoke will have the biggest impact. I've done bone in, bone out, whole shoulder, picnic, and butt. They taste like pulled pork to me.

Lance

 

[lovethemeats]

Thanks people for the info.
Yes i to am a bone person.
Just the way it has to be for me also.

 

[lunchmeat]

Update, Pork butts came out ok with bone out . the issue I had was the cook time seemed longer to be honest , I think i prefer bone in