What I think I know about curing ....and what I need to know

[paul catt]

Here is what I think I know ..I have a grinder on the way

 so I'm going to have to make some good stuff to make up for it

1. Cure is not for flavor

2. if I dont cure meats like polish sausage I need to smoke it to 160

3  if I use cure I can wait on cooking the meat and freeze it also

4  I can cure meats like bacon and canadian bacon for up to 14 days and still live....

am I on the right track here  

 

[fpnmf]

Here is some reading for ya...

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/

http://lpoli.50webs.com/index.htm

http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?736-Curing-Salts

 

[shannon127]

Paul,

Craig provided some great resources, you really should take the time to read them.  Here are my musings on your thoughts.  Take them for what they are worth.....

1.  Cure is for flavor....fresh sausage tastes very different from cured sausage

2.  You should take the internal temp of hot smoked pork sausage to an internal temperature of at least 155.  Beef sausage can be less.  The cure helps prevent bacterial growth while the meat is in that danger zone of 70-140.  Think of it this way, when smoking you are are creating similar temperature and humidity conditions as an incubator.  The sausage is an excellent growth medium that you have mixed the bacteria throughout.

3. Fairly accurate, just really want to stay out of the 70-140 degree range unless it is cured. 

4.  Cure #1 will dissipate over time.  If you use 120+ppm you will be good for 2 weeks.  If you are aging for longer periods of time consider using Cure #2 which contains nitrates.  These nitrates are converted to nitrites much like a time released capsule.  I have a Bresaola which I started curing on October 13th and has been hanging in my curing cabinet since November 8th.  The moisture level is right at 79%, and will age probably another 3-4 weeks. 

Nitrites and Nitrates are your best friends when it comes to smoked or aged meats.  They can be dangerous if not used correctly, but so can my car. 

Here is a link to help you determine the amount of cure needed.  I like to stay 120-150 for cure #1, and 160-185 for cure#2.  Some items which are cured for a very long time, I will go up to 200ppm. 

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-recipes/cure-calculator

Shannon

 

[paul catt]

Hey

Thanks for your help .... Funny  I have salt water tanks and have to watch my Nitrites and Nitrates all the time

I will read more ...I also plan on buying some cure#1  ..gheesh now I have to think about casings ....

Again thanks for your help ..I have so many things I want to make  lol

 

[shannon127]

Paul,

Best bet on casings is the meat department at your local grocery store.  I buy hog casings at $16 a hank

 

[boykjo]

1.Cure is not a flavoring. Cure is a preservative
2.yes.just make sure it reaches 160 in 4 hrs. 180 degree smoker should be good
3. Yes
4. Yes

And yes

 

[BGKYSmoker]

I know nothing.

I'm merely a messenger.  (Pops, Stroker Ace)

 

 

[tennsmoker]

Paul,

Craig provided some great resources, you really should take the time to read them.  Here are my musings on your thoughts.  Take them for what they are worth.....

1.  Cure is for flavor....fresh sausage tastes very different from cured sausage

2.  You should take the internal temp of hot smoked pork sausage to an internal temperature of at least 155.  Beef sausage can be less.  The cure helps prevent bacterial growth while the meat is in that danger zone of 70-140.  Think of it this way, when smoking you are are creating similar temperature and humidity conditions as an incubator.  The sausage is an excellent growth medium that you have mixed the bacteria throughout.

3. Fairly accurate, just really want to stay out of the 70-140 degree range unless it is cured. 

4.  Cure #1 will dissipate over time.  If you use 120+ppm you will be good for 2 weeks.  If you are aging for longer periods of time consider using Cure #2 which contains nitrates.  These nitrates are converted to nitrites much like a time released capsule.  I have a Bresaola which I started curing on October 13th and has been hanging in my curing cabinet since November 8th.  The moisture level is right at 79%, and will age probably another 3-4 weeks. 

Nitrites and Nitrates are your best friends when it comes to smoked or aged meats.  They can be dangerous if not used correctly, but so can my car. 

Here is a link to help you determine the amount of cure needed.  I like to stay 120-150 for cure #1, and 160-185 for cure#2.  Some items which are cured for a very long time, I will go up to 200ppm. 

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-recipes/cure-calculator

Shannon

The temperature range in which food borne bacteria can grow is known as the danger zone. According to the 2009 U.S. Food and Drug Administration Food Code, the danger zone is defined as 5 and 57 °C (41 and 135 °F).[sup][1][/sup] However, other jurisdictions consider the danger zone between 5 and 60 °C (41 and 140 °F).[sup][2][/sup]Potentially hazardous food should not be stored at temperatures in this range in order to prevent foodborne illness, and food that remains in this zone for more than two hours should not be consumed according to FSIS.[sup][3][/sup] Foodborne microorganisms grow much faster in the middle of the zone, at temperatures between 21 and 47 °C (70 and 117 °F).[sup][4][/sup]

excerpt frpm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danger_zone_(food_safety)

my $.02

al

 

[BGKYSmoker]

Safe curing just cant be said enough.

CURES - Cures are used in sausage products for color and flavor development as well as retarding the development of bacteria in
the low temperature environment of smoked meats.
Salt and sugar both cure meat by osmosis. In addition to drawing the water from the food, they dehydrate and kill the bacteria that make food spoil. In general, though, use of the word "cure" refers to processing the meat with either sodium nitrite or sodium nitrate.

The primary and most important reason to use cures is to prevent BOTULISM POISONING (Food poisoning). It is very important that any kind of meat or sausage that will be cooked and smoked at low temperature be cured. To trigger botulism poisoning, the requirements are quite simple - lack of oxygen, the presence of moisture, and temperatures in range of 40-140° F. When smoking meats, the heat and smoke eliminates the oxygen. The meats have moisture and are traditionally smoked and cooked in the low ranges of 90 to 185° F. As you can see, these are ideal conditions for food poisoning if you don't use cures. There are two types of commercially used cures.

Prague Powder #1
Also called Insta-Cure and Modern Cure. Cures are used to prevent meats from spoiling when being cooked or smoked at low temperatures (under 200 degrees F). This cure is 1 part sodium nitrite (6.25%) and 16 parts salt (93.75%) and are combined and crystallized to assure even distribution. As the meat temperate rises during processing, the sodium nitrite changes to nitric oxide and starts to ‘gas out’ at about 130 degrees F. After the smoking /cooking process is complete only about 10-20% of the original nitrite remains. As the product is stored and later reheated for consumption, the decline of nitrite continues. 4 ounces of Prague powder #1 is required to cure 100 lbs of meat. A more typical measurement for home use is 1 level tsp per 5 lbs of meat. Mix with cold water, then mix into meat like you would mix seasonings into meat.

Prague Powder #2
Used to dry-cure products. Prague powder #2 is a mixture of 1 part sodium nitrite, .64 parts sodium nitrate and 16 parts salt. (1 oz. of sodium nitrite with .64 oz. of sodium nitrate to each lb. of salt.)
It is primarily used in dry-curing Use with products that do not require cooking, smoking, or refrigeration. This cure, which is sodium nitrate, acts like a time release, slowly breaking down into sodium nitrite, then into nitric oxide. This allows you to dry cure products that take much longer to cure. A cure with sodium nitrite would dissipate too quickly.
Use 1 oz. of cure for 25 lbs. of meat or 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lbs. of meat when mixing with meat.
When using a cure in a brine solution, follow a recipe.

Be safe, not sorry.
 

 

[shannon127]

My sincerest apologies-  Cure is first and foremost a preservative.  I think we all agree on that.  It is also contibutes significantly to the flavor of the sausage.  On my first read, I thought Paul was saying cure does not add flavor.  I certainly do not want to confuse the point.  CURE IS FOR FOOD PRESERVATION.  It can be dangerous if too much is added. 

Also, I want to say the danger zone for meat is most definately 40 to 140.  I really do not want to confuse this by making mention of the exceptions.

 

[paul catt]

My sincerest apologies-  Cure is first and foremost a preservative.  I think we all agree on that.  It is also contibutes significantly to the flavor of the sausage.  On my first read, I thought Paul was saying cure does not add flavor.  I certainly do not want to confuse the point.  CURE IS FOR FOOD PRESERVATION.  It can be dangerous if too much is added. 

Also, I want to say the danger zone for meat is most definately 40 to 140.  I really do not want to confuse this by making mention of the exceptions.

Hey Shannon ...

You was right ..I didnt know that cure added  flavor... so what I am getting is that no matter what I should add the cure to my Sausage mix Even if Im going to take it to 160 degrees ..like kebasi ..since I will be freezing it for eating later ...

My GF is sure I'm going to kill us all

 

[daveomak]

My GF is sure I'm going to kill us all

If you do not use cure,  She could be right.....

Trying to dispel the myth about nitrites and nitrates to the indoctrinated uneducated is quite the task...

Some folks would rather believe a teleprompter reading newscaster than scientific proof...   

.....

And don't you dare tell her I called her indoctrinated and uneducated..... 

 ....  I was speaking of all the others....    Dave

 

[shannon127]

LOL @ Dave.....too funny. 

 

[shannon127]

Paul---Dave is 100% spot on.  No cure can lead to far more serious problems if not done right.  The paranoia about Nitrates/Nitrites is really ridiculous.  Used responsibly, they are very safe.  If you want to prove to your GF the benefits of home cured meat without too much work, make her some Irish Bacon.  It is a whole muscle product so no grinding.  The process is very simple and straight forward.  It is also so much less fat than regular store bought bacon and better flavor.  She will be hooked.  Be careful with it, or you will end up like me making the stuff every other weekend to satify her fix.  Here is a post I did a while back on how to make Irish Bacon

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/132225/irish-bacon-pictures-and-recipe

If you really want to try Kielbasa out of the gate, here is my step by step post.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/129813/kielbasa-start-to-finish-for-chef-jimmy

Enjoy, and remember there are never stupid questions....If you're not sure of something always ask.

 

[paul catt]

Thanks Shannon and Dave

Jimmy shares your instructions with me on the yummy looking Kielbasa...it looks to be idiot proof ...now that I have Jinked myself

 I'm sure the gremlin will be lurking  lol

I had never heard of Irish bacon  will have to try that too ...woooo thank god I can retire in 7 years  lol   then I can be a full time smoker ...now if that damn grinder will just get here ... oh  and I ordered a scale yesterday so I can do grams ... I have to use the metric system in my job so at least I have a head start in that.

oh one more thing ...see she is worried about the whole 14 day sit in the fridge for the c-bacon  and stuff like that .....hmmm I guess I could tell her its not safe after all ... more for me :)

 

[shannon127]

Paul,

The Bresaola(back right corner) has been hanging in there since October.  It will be there until at least February until it is fully aged.  I can guarantee you that I will not get sick from it, that is unless I eat the entire thig at once.  Now with that said, it is cured with Cure #2 and has been kept around 50-55 degrees.  When you have made several Irish bacons, some Pancetta, a couple of Coppas, and at least one sucessful Lachsschinken, I will share the secrets to this delightful treat.

krakowska.jpg

• shannon127
• Jan 15, 2013

 

[paul catt]

Pancetta.........drool......