Smoking to below FDA approved temps.

[creolesote]

Very different scenario entirely. when you heat water to boil, it comes to a boil rather fast. Also, there is not a food source for the bacteria to thrive given the optimum temperature range. Cooking sausages correctly involves low starting temps and a slow ramp up in temp. Perfect conditions for bacteria to grow in a sausage...with plenty to eat. Commercial producers most always use liquid smoke and cook the sausages in a steam oven. Water transfers heat 25X faster than air. and in a 100% humidity environment, the sausages have essentially no evaporative cooling effect, so no weight loss = higher profit. And the sausages are done extremely fast. This is the reason DaveOmak closed his vents (with no smoke) and steamed his sausages. I do the same now after learning it from him here on SMF.

Now I don’t get that. The steam/swamp water had full contamination before I boiled it. Indeed the perfect environment for it to grow into full contamination. Unlike sausage that started out contamination free. So why does boiling it kill the bacteria or ya in enough to drink but same heat doesn’t kill it in meat?

 

[JckDanls 07]

So why does boiling it kill the bacteria or ya in enough to drink but same heat doesn’t kill it in meat?

when you heat water to boil, it comes to a boil rather fast. Also, there is not a food source for the bacteria to thrive given the optimum temperature range. Cooking sausages correctly involves low starting temps and a slow ramp up in temp. Perfect conditions for bacteria to grow in a sausage...with plenty to eat

No food source in water

 

[SmokinEdge]

Now I don’t get that. The steam/swamp water had full contamination before I boiled it. Indeed the perfect environment for it to grow into full contamination. Unlike sausage that started out contamination free. So why does boiling it kill the bacteria or ya in enough to drink but same heat doesn’t kill it in meat?

At what temperature range are you smoking sausage??
At what temperature does water boil?

 

[indaswamp]

I am trying hard here to understand what you are asking, but I am at a loss for what swamp water, deer feces, and sausages all have in common. There is a safe process for smoking sausages. We are all here to help you follow it.

 

[indaswamp]

same heat doesn’t kill it in meat?

It will kill it in meat....as long as you get the temperature high enough for long enough above 131*F, otherwise all you are doing is throwing them a summer party....and boy do they party in warm temperatures of 120-130*F. Bacterial growth is a function of temperature. It follows exponential growth.

 

[indaswamp]

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/question-regarding-sausage-temp.294461/#post-2045955

Chef jimmyj was a moderator in very high regard here on SMF. Not only was he a very knowledgeable chef, he was also an instructor of food safety at a Culinary Institute. His advice is the gold standard here on SMF, and has been for a very long time.

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t...ausage-for-cooking-later.294519/#post-2046339

He wrote extensively about food safety here. I suggest you look up some of his old threads on what you are attempting to do.

Another chef jimmyj post:

Not freezing....Cold Smoked...Sausages that are raw.
Depending on the smoker temp, even with Cure, it leaves room for bacteria that is not affected by Nitrite to grow. Would you make a batch of your sausage, even with cure, and leave it out on the counter for 4, 6, 8 hours on a 90° or 110° day? No, you get your sausage in the refer to be smoked or packaged and frozen, ASAP.
We want to keep ALL sausage Cold until we smoke it to a Safe Temp and/or Freeze it to be smoked another time.
This is what I was talking about.
Example : If you mix up a batch of Kielbasa, you keep it refrigerated until...1) You smoke to a pasteurizing temp then freeze...Or... 2) Freeze it to be smoked, to a pasteurizing temp, at a later date...JJ

BTW...Good Question. I edited my response in the other thread for clarity.

 

[creolesote]

It will kill it in meat....as long as you get the temperature high enough for long enough above 131*F, otherwise all you are doing is throwing them a summer party....and boy do they party in warm temperatures of 120-130*F. Bacterial growth is a function of temperature. It follows exponential growth.

Ok that makes sense and I guess it’s like not taking your full dose of antibiotics unless somehow before you eat that sausage you get it up or back up to a kill temp for a long enough time. But perhaps that could ruin the sausage too if you have let the bacteria go wild and have to use high heat to kill it.
I thank all of you for the valuable information and your patience with my lack of knowledge. A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous. And taxing. Thanks.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I thank all of you for the valuable information and your patience with my lack of knowledge. A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous. And taxing. Thanks.

Before you go, if you use a standard ramp scale of time and temp increase you should have no problem finishing sausage in 5 hours or less assuming you know the actual pit temp with an independent thermometer probe. I’m thinking that getting your process wrinkled out may help a bunch.

Many of us here now use some sort of water or poach finish or steam finish now. For me it’s more a function of better time control and a better natural casing texture, but finishing hot smoked sausage ( up to 2”) in ~3.5 hours is nice for me.

 

[creolesote]

Before you go, if you use a standard ramp scale of time and temp increase you should have no problem finishing sausage in 5 hours or less assuming you know the actual pit temp with an independent thermometer probe. I’m thinking that getting your process wrinkled out may help a bunch.

Many of us here now use some sort of water or poach finish or steam finish now. For me it’s more a function of better time control and a better natural casing texture, but finishing hot smoked sausage ( up to 2”) in ~3.5 hours is nice for me.

Oh yea. On the andouille this weekend after 3 hrs with unit temp set on and sayin 120 and when starting to bump it up gradually I broke out the ThermoPro and found the new electric smoker is at least 20-25 degrees higher in cabinet temp than the unit’s digital thermosat and thermometer read. So I probably started out the process at 145-150 thinking the setting of 120 was accurate. Made adjustments.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Oh yea. On the andouille this weekend after 3 hrs with unit temp set on and sayin 120 and when starting to bump it up gradually I broke out the ThermoPro and found the new electric smoker is at least 20-25 degrees higher in cabinet temp than the unit’s digital thermosat and thermometer read. So I probably started out the process at 145-150 thinking the setting of 120 was accurate. Made adjustments.

You can start out with higher temps in the 140’s but the sausage will cook faster and give you less time in smoke. There are many ways to or different processes to hot smoke sausage successfully. Finding that process that works for you and your set up is a must.

Don’t remove sausage from the fridge and go directly into the smoker, even if starting low in the 110-120F range. The below 40 temp of the meat takes more time to heat up and you run the risk of condensation on the surface which can create an acrid smoke flavor. Let the sausage warm at room temperature for an hour Or so before going in the smoker. This will help the overall timeframe and quality.

Start 120-130 for about 1/2 hour no smoke. Let the sausage warm and dry the surface then apply smoke for an hour. Ramp temp 10* every hour with smoke until you finish 1 hour at 150. From there go straight to 170 and finish final IT. You can bump to 190 for a short time if needed to finish.

Followed that process for many years and it works fine. However when I smoke for 3 hours never going higher than 150 and poach finish the poach only takes less than 30 min to reach final IT. So total cook time is 3.5 hours for me with hog casing 32mm size. It’s a precise finish and a big time saver.

As already discussed, there are many ways to to finish sausage. Cure then freeze to smoke later, to cold smoking to hot smoking. They all work but finding what works best for you and staying within the safety parameters is the key.

Stick with it and make some great sausage. We are all glad to help along the way if you need it.

 

[indaswamp]

Indeed the perfect environment for it to grow into full contamination.

Bacteria need to come in contact with a food source to proliferate and grow. No food source-no growth. You also have competitive exclusion from good microbes in the natural environment. Stream water has some oxygen in it (it is why fish and other aquatic life can survive in it), and this oxygen inhibits the bad anaerobic bacteria. Some bad anaerobic microbes may be present, but they can not grow unless the environment is devoid of oxygen-just like in the center of a sausage.

 

[indaswamp]

Pertinent info:

Botulism toxin formation is not inhibited 100% by nitrate/nitrite alone. a pH of <5.5 must also be present for a sausage to be totally protected against botulism toxin formation. But nitrate/nitrite does severely slow growth and production. (in a salt environment typical of fresh and smoke sausages - 1.5-2%). Bacteria are influenced by temperature, so at cold smoking temps <71*F, they grow very slow.

And this is why you should not just heat the sausage to 120-130*F and then let them cool to freeze and cook later.

 

[hoity toit]

When cold smoking a dry cure sausage, cold smoking is basically an extension of the drying-with smoke being added. With the pH below 5.3, along with 3% salt, cure #2, safe meat handling at cold temps; all these hurdles inhibit bad bacteria growth. The degree-hours formula for a dry cure sausage applies only to fermentation until the sausage achieve a pH less than 5.3. The temperature can actually be raised now, up to 68*F without issue as long as drying continues without issue. Drying is also a hurdle for a dry cure sausage. Commercial dry cure sausage producers use a kill step in most salami sold in the U.S. for the safety regs. They could get around doing this, but the cost increase dramatically, and the verification and testing is rigorous, so most just use a kill step. With the environment in the sausage already inhospitable to bad microbes, the heat treatment for a kill step is lower. For a fast ferment, semi dry product, that kill step temperature could be as low as 123*F. Doing this of course destroys tons of flavor molecules created in the sausage. The complexity of flavor will be flat. Which is why most of the commercial salami tastes like crap to me. I hope this answers your question, if not ask a follow up...

That is good to know. Thanks.