Smoking to below FDA approved temps.

[creolesote]

I searched for any threads on this but couldn’t find any. Given how many people buy smoked sausage and cook it for a good bit longer than maybe suggested and it still turns out good, does anyone here smoke their pork sausage to like 120-130 and then cold bathe and bloom it and freeze it knowing they will grill it good and get to 150+ when it’s time to eat it? Seems like this would save me dealing with any stall issues or drying it out or having to poach or SV it. And yes I use cure. What am I missing in this thought?

 

[indaswamp]

does anyone here smoke their pork sausage to like 120-130 and then cold bathe and bloom it and freeze it knowing they will grill it good and get to 150+ when it’s time to eat it? Seems like this would save me dealing with any stall issues or drying it out or having to poach or SV it. And yes I use cure. What am I missing in this thought?

What you are missing is safety. 120-130 is still in the danger zone where bacteria grow fast. This is not a salami where you are dropping the pH to below pH5.3 which is a strong hurdle to inhibit bad microbes from growing (in synergy with all the other hurdles). You also likely are not making a smoke sausage with 3% salt like you would in a salami. The absolute lowest you could go would be 131* F INT, but you would need to check the sous-vide charts for time to pasteurize depending on the diameter of your sausages. What I do is smoke to INT of 136*F and hold for 1.5 hours. This will kill to LOG9 reduction in pathogens (that's 1 with 9 zeros behind it). This is safe per USDA regs... The final INT temp of the sausages after 1.5 hours could be 140-150 depending on how much I loaded into the smokehouse, but either way, the sausages are safe.

Heating to 120-130 and you are growing microbes in the meat. they keep growing as the sausage cools, then go dormant when you freeze the links. They will wake up and continue growing when you thaw the links.

Commuted meats are treated differently than say bacon, where it can be cold smoked repeatedly over many days and still be safe because it is intact and not minced.

 

[creolesote]

What you are missing is safety. 120-130 is still in the danger zone where bacteria grow fast. This is not a salami where you are dropping the pH to below pH5.3 which is a strong hurdle to inhibit bad microbes from growing (in synergy with all the other hurdles). You also likely are not making a smoke sausage with 3% salt like you would in a salami. The absolute lowest you could go would be 131* F INT, but you would need to check the sous-vide charts for time to pasteurize depending on the diameter of your sausages. What I do is smoke to INT of 136*F and hold for 1.5 hours. This will kill to LOG9 reduction in pathogens (that's 1 with 9 zeros behind it). This is safe per USDA regs... The final INT temp of the sausages after 1.5 hours could be 140-150 depending on how much I loaded into the smokehouse, but either way, the sausages are safe.

Heating to 120-130 and you are growing microbes in the meat. they keep growing as the sausage cools, then go dormant when you freeze the links. They will wake up and continue growing when you thaw the links.

Commuted meats are treated differently than say bacon, where it can be cold smoked repeatedly over many days and still be safe because it is intact and not minced.

Ok so when I grill frozen fresh sausage isn’t that full of bacteria since uncooked and no cure? I’m grilling raw sausage then. Seems like grilling sausage smoked with cure ame cooked to 90% is safer???? Meh?

 

[SmokinEdge]

Ok so when I grill frozen fresh sausage isn’t that full of bacteria since uncooked and no cure? I’m grilling raw sausage then. Seems like grilling sausage smoked with cure ame cooked to 90% is safer???? Meh?

Roll your own dice there Bud. You seem to not understand that temperature between 90F and 129F is the bacteria playground, also the warmer it gets up to 130 the bacteria multiply at a break neck speed. Your main problem in this scenario is the hold time in smoker in that temp range. This is why when you warm or hot smoke sausage it is imperative that you either hold for pasteurization or finish IT 145-151+ depending on meat variety.

Cure 1 is not a cure all. It does handle botulism and a couple other bacteria but there are a few others it does not such as listeria and others. The rule for safety is 40 to 140 IT in 4 hours or less and while you can cheat that some with cured sausage it is best practice to adhere to the rule for safety. Once you start a warm or hot smoke on sausage you need to finish it, not start and stop short.

If you are having problems with stall, then most likely your smoker temps in actual are off and/or you are over crowding your smoker. 40 to 140 in 4-5 hours is standard and absolutely doable without any special equipment or tricks.

 

[indaswamp]

Ok so when I grill frozen fresh sausage isn’t that full of bacteria since uncooked and no cure? I’m grilling raw sausage then. Seems like grilling sausage smoked with cure ame cooked to 90% is safer???? Meh?

Yes, most fresh sausages, especially those made in house at a grocer or butcher shop don't contain nitrites, but some commercially made fresh sausages do add nitrates. Would depend on which fresh sausage you buy. A fresh sausage without nitrite added has a short shelf life of 7 days in the refrigerator. And as @SmokinEdge has pointed out, the doubling rate for bacteria goes exponential in the 120-130*F range so a kill step (higher temp to kill; or temp. above 131*F + time to pasteurize) is necessary-even if you are going to freeze said sausages.

 

[indaswamp]

If you buy a fresh sausage that has nitrites (even some that say they do not add nitrites will have natural sources of nitrite added. most of these are plant based like celery powder), then it is still USDA standard to cook commuted meats (ground meat) to a kill step all at one time once you start heating it. Bacteria are still growing during cool down with a huge head of steam. Find a bacterial counter calculator online and plug in some scenarios... the number of bacteria grown will shock you.

 

[chopsaw]

does anyone here smoke their pork sausage to like 120-130 and then cold bathe and bloom it and freeze it knowing they will grill it good and get to 150+ when it’s time to eat it?

No . Smoke for color , then poach . 30 minutes at 175 for hog size casings .

I have started mixing and let cure overnight . Stuff and freeze raw in serving size batches .
Then thaw and smoke / grill for eating . Comes out as good , or better in my opinion than a long hang in the smoker , freezing , thawing and reheating .
Done start to finish in a pellet grill .

The batch on the sheet pan was in an MES 30 start to finish ( 152 IT ) , and the batch on the rack was from the pellet grill .

You'd have a hard time tell the difference .

9 hours in the 30 ,,, 1 1/2 hours in the pellet .

 

[dward51]

Why do you want to just cook it to 120-130? The meat is really not properly set until around 140 degrees. You can make food "safe" at lower temps by longer times at those temps. That's how sous vide works. If your smoker will hold a low temp for a long time, you could do it in the smoker at 120-130, but you might run the risk of over smoking or even getting a dirty smoke flavor (not the thin blue smoke). Any sausage smoked to be cooked for serving later really does need cure in it. Fresh that is refrigerated or frozen can be made without cure. You can still "cook" fresh sausage on a smoker, just to a higher temp in a shorter period of time. It will still pick up the desired smoke profile but I guess it really depends on how much smoke profile and color you are looking for.

 

[archeryrob]

It has to sit at 130 for 2 hours to be safe. You can do 140 IT for 12 minutes or 145 for 4 minutes. Dave Omak on here used to do sausage at 130 IT and ran them over two hours to get the bacteria kill working.

Bacteria does not start dying until 125 -126 and 120 is just not safe, at all. 140 is fairly easy to ramp up to and safe. I have done bologna that stalled and never pushed the temp higher and it was fine.

Internal cooking temperature for summer sausage and snack sticks

Ok, I want to cover the cooking for summer sausage and snack sticks and the Internal Temperature (IT) they need to be. I have seen people posting on the internet being told by kit information to co…

archeryrob.wordpress.com

 

[creolesote]

Roll your own dice there Bud. You seem to not understand that temperature between 90F and 129F is the bacteria playground, also the warmer it gets up to 130 the bacteria multiply at a break neck speed. Your main problem in this scenario is the hold time in smoker in that temp range. This is why when you warm or hot smoke sausage it is imperative that you either hold for pasteurization or finish IT 145-151+ depending on meat variety.

Cure 1 is not a cure all. It does handle botulism and a couple other bacteria but there are a few others it does not such as listeria and others. The rule for safety is 40 to 140 IT in 4 hours or less and while you can cheat that some with cured sausage it is best practice to adhere to the rule for safety. Once you start a warm or hot smoke on sausage you need to finish it, not start and stop short.

If you are having problems with stall, then most likely your smoker temps in actual are off and/or you are over crowding your smoker. 40 to 140 in 4-5 hours is standard and absolutely doable without any special equipment or tricks.

Your last reply suggested 8 hrs to smoke andouille. Was that 40-140 in 4-5 hrs? I did your thing to the tee and got to 7 hrs and was only IT of 130. Finished it in My smoker is 25 degrees off on digital cabinet thermometer versus a ThermoPro probe. It why can’t a propane or coal grill finish off a smoked sausage to 130 degrees to 150 when the same grill can do it with fresh sausage?

No . Smoke for color , then poach . 30 minutes at 175 for hog size casings .

I have started mixing and let cure overnight . Stuff and freeze raw in serving size batches .
Then thaw and smoke / grill for eating . Comes out as good , or better in my opinion than a long hang in the smoker , freezing , thawing and reheating .
Done start to finish in a pellet grill .
View attachment 730959
The batch on the sheet pan was in an MES 30 start to finish ( 152 IT ) , and the batch on the rack was from the pellet grill .
View attachment 730960
You'd have a hard time tell the difference .
View attachment 730961
9 hours in the 30 ,,, 1 1/2 hours in the pellet .

I was doing Andouille yesterday so needed smoke for color and flavor. I did it to 130 in the smoker (7hrs) and pulled it an finished it to 150 via poaching for 10 min at 170. I suppose I could cold smoke, freeze and then thaw and grill too. Or smoke and poach. I’m gleaming that once you get over 90 and 130 the exponential growth of bacteria can’t be overcome by immediate freezing in a non certified freeze and then later thawing and grilling. Doesn’t seem logical when you can kill most all bacteria at a certain temp but why take a chance when I can just cold smoke, freeze, thaw and grill to 150+.

 

[hoity toit]

Yes, most fresh sausages, especially those made in house at a grocer or butcher shop don't contain nitrites, but some commercially made fresh sausages do add nitrates. Would depend on which fresh sausage you buy. A fresh sausage without nitrite added has a short shelf life of 7 days in the refrigerator. And as @SmokinEdge has pointed out, the doubling rate for bacteria goes exponential in the 120-130*F range so a kill step (higher temp to kill; or temp. above 131*F + time to pasteurize) is necessary-even if you are going to freeze said sausages

What you are missing is safety. 120-130 is still in the danger zone where bacteria grow fast. This is not a salami where you are dropping the pH to below pH5.3 which is a strong hurdle to inhibit bad microbes from growing (in synergy with all the other hurdles). You also likely are not making a smoke sausage with 3% salt like you would in a salami. The absolute lowest you could go would be 131* F INT, but you would need to check the sous-vide charts for time to pasteurize depending on the diameter of your sausages. What I do is smoke to INT of 136*F and hold for 1.5 hours. This will kill to LOG9 reduction in pathogens (that's 1 with 9 zeros behind it). This is safe per USDA regs... The final INT temp of the sausages after 1.5 hours could be 140-150 depending on how much I loaded into the smokehouse, but either way, the sausages are safe.

Heating to 120-130 and you are growing microbes in the meat. they keep growing as the sausage cools, then go dormant when you freeze the links. They will wake up and continue growing when you thaw the links.

Commuted meats are treated differently than say bacon, where it can be cold smoked repeatedly over many days and still be safe because it is intact and not minced.

Just a thought.....how does this apply to cold smoked dried sausage? From what I know, the cure, along with the smoke, protect the sausage then the reduction of moisture and weight loss during the drying process makes it safe for consumption. (I know moisture is the beeding ground for bacteria) (comments please)

 

[indaswamp]

I did your thing to the tee and got to 7 hrs and was only IT of 130. Finished it in My smoker is 25 degrees off on digital cabinet thermometer versus a ThermoPro probe. It why can’t a propane or coal grill finish off a smoked sausage to 130 degrees to 150 when the same grill can do it with fresh sausage?

For the internal temp. of meat to warm-especially sausages- you need to keep the cook chamber temp. 25*F above internal temp. or the internal temp. will slow to a crawl, or not move at all.

And @archeryrob ; Dave also increased the humidity in his smoker by closing off the vent almost closed (with no smoke). This increases the humidity inside the smoke chamber and basically steams the sausages. The high %RH stops evaporation off the sausages and halts evaporative cooling effect....so sausage INT rises and does not stall. When I smoke sasuages, I follow what Dave use to do.....he did work in a meat plant and knew a thing or two. He was a great contribution to this site. I miss his input, along with all the others that have gone. Chef jimmyj would be posting on this thread were he still around.

 

[indaswamp]

Just a thought.....how does this apply to cold smoked dried sausage? From what I know, the cure, along with the smoke, protect the sausage then the reduction of moisture and weight loss during the drying process makes it safe for consumption. (I know moisture is the beeding ground for bacteria) (comments please)

When cold smoking a dry cure sausage, cold smoking is basically an extension of the drying-with smoke being added. With the pH below 5.3, along with 3% salt, cure #2, safe meat handling at cold temps; all these hurdles inhibit bad bacteria growth. The degree-hours formula for a dry cure sausage applies only to fermentation until the sausage achieve a pH less than 5.3. The temperature can actually be raised now, up to 68*F without issue as long as drying continues without issue. Drying is also a hurdle for a dry cure sausage. Commercial dry cure sausage producers use a kill step in most salami sold in the U.S. for the safety regs. They could get around doing this, but the cost increase dramatically, and the verification and testing is rigorous, so most just use a kill step. With the environment in the sausage already inhospitable to bad microbes, the heat treatment for a kill step is lower. For a fast ferment, semi dry product, that kill step temperature could be as low as 123*F. Doing this of course destroys tons of flavor molecules created in the sausage. The complexity of flavor will be flat. Which is why most of the commercial salami tastes like crap to me. I hope this answers your question, if not ask a follow up...

 

[sandyut]

Roll your own dice there Bud. You seem to not understand that temperature between 90F and 129F is the bacteria playground, also the warmer it gets up to 130 the bacteria multiply at a break neck speed. Your main problem in this scenario is the hold time in smoker in that temp range. This is why when you warm or hot smoke sausage it is imperative that you either hold for pasteurization or finish IT 145-151+ depending on meat variety.

This sums it up.

Not to be nasty, but you asked for advice and you getting pretty consistent advice not to undercook your sausage.

Ever had food poisoning? If not, the undercook plan might get you there sooner than later.

 

[creolesote]

This sums it up.

Not to be nasty, but you asked for advice and you getting pretty consistent advice not to undercook your sausage.

Ever had food poisoning? If not, the undercook plan might get you there sooner than later.

Like my burgers rare, my steaks black and blue, eat a lot of sushi and rare game including fowl and venison. My posy brought out good facts on qualified posters who did cook to less than 150, including 130 for a couple hours. Very helpful to me and Iam humble for their advised. And thank your for your”advice”. . You might have missed my earlier reply saying I now understaned the 90-130 bacteria growth and need to avoid that. Thanks again for your help.

 

[indaswamp]

why can’t a propane or coal grill finish off a smoked sausage to 130 degrees to 150 when the same grill can do it with fresh sausage?

You can certainly do that immediately after you smoke said sausages, and many people do just this. @chopsaw gave you a great method that works for safety. But this was not your original question. The problem is not cooking the INT of the sausages to a kill step once heating is started. You asked about warming the sausages up in the smokehouse and not leave the danger zone, then cooling them to freeze. Not advisable because some of the toxins created by some of these bacteria are heat tolerant, so you may kill the bacteria when you reheat, but the toxin will remain if it is created in the warm environment. That is why this is not safe.

 

[creolesote]

You can certainly do that immediately after you smoke said sausages, and many people do just this. @chopsaw gave you a great method that works for safety. But this was not your original question. The problem is not cooking the INT of the sausages to a kill step once heating is started. You asked about warming the sausages up in the smokehouse and not leave the danger zone, then cooling them to freeze. Not advisable because some of the toxins created by some of these bacteria are heat tolerant, so you may kill the bacteria when you reheat, but the toxin will remain if it is created in the warm environment. That is why this is not safe.

I think I get it. But I also know that I have and can take water from a natural source that is full of bacteria that would send me to a hospital, and boil it to eliminate all bacteria. My point is that at all bacteria die if cooked, boiled or heated to high enough point and many many people grill their sausage wayyy beyond that point.






stream water that would make me sick,

 

[indaswamp]

My point is that at all bacteria die if cooked, boiled or heated to high enough point

Very different scenario entirely. when you heat water to boil, it comes to a boil rather fast. Also, there is not a food source for the bacteria to thrive given the optimum temperature range. Cooking sausages correctly involves low starting temps and a slow ramp up in temp. Perfect conditions for bacteria to grow in a sausage...with plenty to eat. Commercial producers most always use liquid smoke and cook the sausages in a steam oven. Water transfers heat 25X faster than air. and in a 100% humidity environment, the sausages have essentially no evaporative cooling effect, so no weight loss = higher profit. And the sausages are done extremely fast. This is the reason DaveOmak closed his vents (with no smoke) and steamed his sausages. I do the same now after learning it from him here on SMF.

 

[JckDanls 07]

My point is that at all bacteria die if cooked, boiled or heated to high enough point

you may kill the bacteria when you reheat, but the toxin will remain if it is created in the warm environment

 

[creolesote]

Now
that is interesting. I hadn’t thought of that. But why doesn’t the toxins in elk or deer feces contaminated water remain after boiling? I really am trying to understand the science.