Phosphate- secret weapon

[daveomak]

.......BEWARE...... of the types of phosphates and their specific uses... STPP is what I use.... The AMES Company now has STPP for sale again..

 

[daveomak]

Just curious, why dissolve one at a time and in that order ?
If Dave says so, that's how I will do it, but I still like to know why.

I read it some where and there's no point in trying to reinvent the wheel.... probably some chemistry thing...

 

[dward51]

Although I have not tried B&P #414 in a liquid brine, I use it all the time in my sticks. I've noticed the clumping of B&P #414. How I dealt with it was I first put the B&P #414 into my small stainless bowl that I will mix my dry spices in. Then I make sure it is all finely crushed into a light fluffy powder and no small lumps. Then I mix it with the dry ingredients and it's well dispersed. Then I add the cure which has been dissolved in the water I intend to use and after stirring it all into a slurry, it goes into the ground meat. I then let the binder and other spices "kick" and meld overnight in the fridge before stuffing. Never had a problem since I started doing it that way. I presume it eventually dissolved into the slurry or dispersed into the meat in the overnight rest. Either way the results are much better than without.

Ok, so how did the burger TASTE with the B&P #414? It looked wonderfully juicy. Texture better?

 

[chopsaw]

Just curious, why dissolve one at a time and in that order ?
If Dave says so, that's how I will do it, but I still like to know why.

I read it some where and there's no point in trying to reinvent the wheel.... probably some chemistry thing...

I do it , because I learned it from Dave . Research has told me , that the intent of the phosphates is to retain moisture . It grabs on to what it comes in contact with . So the liquid should be first . Other ingredients in the liquid first can affect the moisture bonding of the phosphate .

Phosphates are moisture absorbing . Even when stored . If you have clumps that need to be broke down out if the container , they need to be sealed better . Should be a powder .

 

[browneyesvictim]

Ok, so how did the burger TASTE with the B&P #414? It looked wonderfully juicy. Texture better?

Taste- Was the same. Delicious, beefy flavor more like a ground steak.

Texture- remember, I made that burger patty in the photo above immediately after mixing the phosphate in. I imagine there is some window of preferred "resting period" for the phosphate to do its magic like any other spice, or cure, etc. I have never read how long that should be. Overnight minimum is what my gut is telling me, just like cure. But you can tell it was a very juicy burger!

Last night I did cook up the rest of that 2# package into 5 more patties and fried them up on a flat top electric skillet. I used 2C of beef stock from making the roast beef and added 4TBS of Wondra flour. Poured in a skillet with some sautéed mushrooms. (I also sautéed up a whole onion separate cuz mamma don't like 'em.) Peeled and quartered 5 or 6 small russets, and boiled them up for mashed taters. Ok, so this meal is kind of unfair because it is just such gosh darn good comfort food! But I can make a few observations about the beef... There was no blood, or any liquid in the grind or package that you normally see in most ground beef. The patties form nicely though and hold together well. They fried up like normal and was a somewhat normal amount of grease that rendered out while frying. When I pulled them off on to a plate, there were no further juices that ran out- it all stayed in the burger. They were very juicy burgers that taste and have texture more like a really good ground steak than your typical burger.

Dave- Thank you for bringing that up! There are many more phosphates that will make your head spin as you point out. That has me VERY curious what each application is as a food additive- vs a cleaning product. I cant tell EXACTLY what 414 Sausage Phosphate is, and can only assume it is STPP.

 

[daveomak]

When buying any phosphate or other stuff for that matter... look for the FDA/USDA sticker... or write the company as far as "for human consumption" goes...
At the header of that list, NOTE.... "The list of commonly used phosphates in meat products"... and each has a specific "thing" it does to improve a specific product... they don't all provide the same finished product... is what I gather from reading up on that stuff....

BEWARE of stuff labeled "Organic" as organic can include some nasty stuff...

 

[dward51]

I would stick to the known brands made for sausage production which you see talked about in this forum. Butcher & Packer #414, AmesPhos, and there is one other one that DaveO uses but the name escapes me at the moment (I think it's available on Amazon?). I'm sure Dave will fill in that blank shortly. Most of those phosphates are actually a blend of different phosphates and not a single compound.

B&P 414 is inexpensive and easy to find. AmesPhos went out of production for a while, but it's available again and also inexpensive. Also with these food safe phosphates a little bit goes a long long long way. A 1 lb bag will last the average dabbler in sausage and sticks several years.

 

[chopsaw]

Pronto Foods is the other one .

 

[pc farmer]

I would stick to the known brands made for sausage production which you see talked about in this forum. Butcher & Packer #414, AmesPhos, and there is one other one that DaveO uses but the name escapes me at the moment (I think it's available on Amazon?). I'm sure Dave will fill in that blank shortly. Most of those phosphates are actually a blend of different phosphates and not a single compound.

B&P 414 is inexpensive and easy to find. AmesPhos went out of production for a while, but it's available again and also inexpensive. Also with these food safe phosphates a little bit goes a long long long way. A 1 lb bag will last the average dabbler in sausage and sticks several years.

 

[pc farmer]

From Amazon

 

[daveomak]

https://www.prontofoods.net/collections/all

 

[zwiller]

In the spirit of this thread I did burgers last night with 5% water and .5% STPP. Best burgers so far. Note to self: form patties right after mixing and chill. Do not form immediately prior to grilling...

 

[browneyesvictim]

To wrap up the loose end on the turkey... Here is a shot of it 8 hours in at 250' and almost done. Burnt 3 rows of cherry pellets. Got great color. Don't have any cut or plated shots, but this is for a friend. He wanted a "candied" turkey. This should fit the bill.

By the way I am really liking these nylon bags over the cotton! Its like non-stick, and not even close to melting. I was going to hang this bird in the smoker, but was too long and would have been too close to the element.

 

[toddk63]

It appears you guys are using ~0.5% STPP (0.8 oz in 10 lb) in your brisket grind. I have used STPP in sausage before. Len Poli uses 0.30%. One note said 2 TBS per 25lb. Guess I'll have to weigh some STPP.

 

[daveomak]

0.4 - 0.5 % should be all one uses... 0.5% being MAX allowable by the USDA....

Food Additives – Craft Butchers' Pantry

butcherspantry.com

 

[toddk63]

0.4 - 0.5 % should be all one uses... 0.5% being MAX allowable by the USDA....

Food Additives – Craft Butchers' Pantry

butcherspantry.com

View attachment 452313

Perfect. Thanks!