Pasteurization Charts Discrepancy

[farmerchad]

Good morning! So lately I have been enjoying the benefits of SV'ing my smoked sausages. I can honestly say that I cant imagine ever going back to not using the SV. I enjoy it so much, I bought a second SV for back up.

Normally, I use a standard 32-35 mm hog casing. I have used recipes from here, and Len Poli. I usually smoke at about 135-140 (propane thats a pain to keep constant) for 2-4 hours depending on the sausage. Then, I SV at 155 for 3 hours 15 minutes. I want to make darn sure any nasties are obliterated. Maybe 1 in 5 sausages is *slightly* dry. When I say slightly, I really mean slightly.

I have considered reducing the SV by 2 or 3 degrees to see what the outcome is. But last night, as I was perusing the Pasteurization Charts, I noticed some differences.

Link #1 http://douglasbaldwin.com/Baldwin-IJGFS-Preprint.pdf

Link #2 http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

For instance, I usually go with 40mm as the diameter. Without screenshotting the charts, I will just give a couple of examples:

#1 40 mm 2:22 @ 140 vs #2 40 mm 2:00 @ 140 a difference of 22 minutes.

#1 40 mm 4:59 @ 131 vs #2 40 mm 3:30 @ 131 a difference of 89 minutes.

#1 40 mm 1:37 @ 149 vs #2 40 mm 1:30 @ 149 a difference of 7 minutes.

Clearly, as you increase the temp. the difference in time is decreased. It appears that the charts in link #1 is far more conservative, then #2. In the small print it does say:

For less conservative pasteurization times, see (Baldwin, 2008)

I suppose it doesnt matter, as I SV for over 3 hours. But I could see a real issue if SV'ing at really low temps. The margin of error is reduced.

What is the general consensus, here? Which chart to go with? Im assuming the far more conservative charts in link #1

 

[chef jimmyj]

The beauty of SV is, in general, going long has no negative effect.
With Ground and injected/enhanced meat, being conservative is a good idea. While healthy adults have no issue with a little active bacteria, old folks, very young and people with compromised immune systems, this includes people on a whole host of meds for psoriasis and arthritus, could become sick...JJ

 

[daveomak]

In the first paper.... http://douglasbaldwin.com/Baldwin-IJGFS-Preprint.pdf ... It appears to be combining several charts which would be for a simplified presentation...

The second paper ... http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html ... separates the steps for a proper sous vide....

1. Heating Time from 41°F (chart 2.2)
2. Heating Time from Frozen to 1°F (chart 2.3)

From what I glean from these steps.... If you have pasteurized food, this is for reheating it to eat... Or reheating other foods if you have no concerns about pasteurization... It's just a heating chart...

3. Pasteurization Time for Meat (Beef, Pork, and Lamb) starting at 41°F (Chart 5.1)
Time required to reduce Listeria by at least a million to one, Salmonella by at least three million to one, and E. coli by at least a hundred thousand to one in thawed meat starting at 41°F

4. Pasteurization Time for Poultry starting at 41°F (Chart 3.1)
Table 4.1: Time required for at least a one million to one reduction in Listeria and a ten million to one reduction in Salmonella in poultry starting at 41°F

5. Pasteurization Time for Lean Fish starting at 41°F (Chart 3.1)
Table 3.1: Pasteurization times for a one million to one reduction of Listeria in fin-fish.

6. Pasteurization Time for Fatty Fish starting at 41°F (Chart 3.1)
Table 3.1: Pasteurization times for a one million to one reduction of Listeria in fin-fish.

7. Cooling Time to 41°F (5°C) in Ice Water

Then he has suggestions for time added for tenderizing certain cuts.....

I tried to NOT confuse the issues... Let me know .... Dave

 

[phrogpilot73]

Are you immediately storing your sausages, or serving them? The reason I ask is that the purpose of pasteurization is ultimately to increase the shelf life/length of time you can store in the fridge. When you cook a protein in a traditional way, you never come close to pasteurization.

So, if you're immediately serving them - I wouldn't stress too much. If you're SVin'g at 155 for 3 hours, you're already well past pasteurization at that temp. If you're trying to get them to be a tad less dry, I'd do it at 150 - Kenji Lopez-Alt described SV'd sausage at 150 as "Fully firm and extra juicy, with a very smooth texture throughout."

If you goal is pasteurization, I would go with the more conservative numbers - only because we as home cooks don't have the ability to test for pathogens, control our fridge/freezer temperatures as precise as those that come up with the charts. Better safe than sorry, although again - you're just attempting to increase shelf life since you'd be storing it outside the temperature danger zone anyway.

 

[dr k]

In the first paper.... http://douglasbaldwin.com/Baldwin-IJGFS-Preprint.pdf ... It appears to be combining several charts which would be for a simplified presentation...

The second paper ... http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html ... separates the steps for a proper sous vide....

1. Heating Time from 41°F (chart 2.2)
2. Heating Time from Frozen to 1°F (chart 2.3)

From what I glean from these steps.... If you have pasteurized food, this is for reheating it to eat... Or reheating other foods if you have no concerns about pasteurization... It's just a heating chart...
If I'm going to SV I'm going to use the pasteurizing chart. Because if something comes up and I can't eat it I can throw it in an ice water bath in the fridge to rapidly cool and eat it within the 3-4 week period since it's pasteurized and in it's sealed SV bag. This paragraph was under the 2.3 reheating chart. If the food is not being pasteurized (as is the case with fish and rare meat), it is important that the food come up to temperature and be served within four hours. Unlike conventional cooking methods, this is easily accomplished by cutting the food into individual portion sizes before cooking–which is why cooking times over four hours are not shown for temperatures below 131°F (55°C). It is important that only immune-competent individuals consume unpasteurized food and that they understand the risks associated with eating unpasteurized food.
3. Pasteurization Time for Meat (Beef, Pork, and Lamb) starting at 41°F (Chart 5.1)
Time required to reduce Listeria by at least a million to one, Salmonella by at least three million to one, and E. coli by at least a hundred thousand to one in thawed meat starting at 41°F

4. Pasteurization Time for Poultry starting at 41°F (Chart 3.1)
Table 4.1: Time required for at least a one million to one reduction in Listeria and a ten million to one reduction in Salmonella in poultry starting at 41°F

5. Pasteurization Time for Lean Fish starting at 41°F (Chart 3.1)
Table 3.1: Pasteurization times for a one million to one reduction of Listeria in fin-fish.

6. Pasteurization Time for Fatty Fish starting at 41°F (Chart 3.1)
Table 3.1: Pasteurization times for a one million to one reduction of Listeria in fin-fish.

7. Cooling Time to 41°F (5°C) in Ice Water

Then he has suggestions for time added for tenderizing certain cuts.....

I tried to NOT confuse the issues... Let me know .... Dave

 

[daveomak]

As an example.. A frozen 1" thick steak pasteurized at 140....

Thickness.... Time to reheat, from frozen to 1deg. F below set temp... say it's 140... (table 2.3)
25 mm........1¾ hr
Table 2.3: Approximate heating times for frozen meat to 1°F (0.5°C) less than the water bath’s temperature. You can decrease the time by about 13% if you only want to heat the meat to within 2°F (1°C) of the water bath’s temperature. Do not use these times to compute pasteurization times: use the pasteurization tables below. (My calculations assume that the water bath’s temperature is between 110°F (45°C) and 175°F (80°C). I use a typical thermal diffusivity of 1.4×10-7 m2/s and surface heat transfer coefficient of 95 W/m2-K.)

Then to pasteurize .. (table 5.1)
Thickness.....Time to pasteurize, at 140...
25 mm .......1½ hr

Total time from frozen to pasteurized, 1" thick steak or chop .... 1.75 + 1.5 = 3 hours and 15 minutes at 140 F....


Anyhow, that's how I read this....

 

[dr k]

As an example.. A frozen 1" thick steak pasteurized at 140....

Thickness.... Time to reheat, from frozen to 1deg. F below set temp... say it's 140... (table 2.3)
25 mm........1¾ hr
Table 2.3: Approximate heating times for frozen meat to 1°F (0.5°C) less than the water bath’s temperature. You can decrease the time by about 13% if you only want to heat the meat to within 2°F (1°C) of the water bath’s temperature. Do not use these times to compute pasteurization times: use the pasteurization tables below. (My calculations assume that the water bath’s temperature is between 110°F (45°C) and 175°F (80°C). I use a typical thermal diffusivity of 1.4×10-7 m2/s and surface heat transfer coefficient of 95 W/m2-K.)

Then to pasteurize .. (table 5.1)
Thickness.....Time to pasteurize, at 140...
25 mm .......1½ hr

Total time from frozen to pasteurized, 1" thick steak or chop .... 1.75 + 1.5 = 3 hours and 15 minutes at 140 F....


Anyhow, that's how I read this....

This is what I'd do if I had frozen food going into SV and then also pasteurizing.

 

[daveomak]

Kurt.... Me also.... Folks have noted recipes with their SV machines, on the forum... They don't come close to Baldwin's tables... That's what got me started on this campaign... EDUCATE about SV and how to use it safely...

 

[dr k]

This was kinda hidden in my reply above in Dave's quote because you'd have to expand the quote to see my response in blue and red:
If I'm going to SV I'm going to use the pasteurizing chart. Because if something comes up and I can't eat it I can throw it in an ice water bath in the fridge to rapidly cool and eat it within the 3-4 week period since it's pasteurized and in it's sealed SV bag. This disclaimer paragraph was under the 2.3 reheating chart in link #2 above but not link #1 heating chart. "If the food is not being pasteurized (as is the case with fish and rare meat), it is important that the food come up to temperature and be served within four hours. Unlike conventional cooking methods, this is easily accomplished by cutting the food into individual portion sizes before cooking–which is why cooking times over four hours are not shown for temperatures below 131°F (55°C). It is important that only immune-competent individuals consume unpasteurized food and that they understand the risks associated with eating unpasteurized food."

I do like the specie specific charts and like farmerchad mentioned it's usually a bit longer in the bath till I get to it or dinner time if starting the SV cook in the morning.

 

[indaswamp]

There is also a difference as to whether you are going to a Log5, Log7, or higher reduction in pathogens.

 

[farmerchad]

There is also a difference as to whether you are going to a Log5, Log7, or higher reduction in pathogens.

 

[farmerchad]

The beauty of SV is, in general, going long has no negative effect.
With Ground and injected/enhanced meat, being conservative is a good idea. While healthy adults have no issue with a little active bacteria, old folks, very young and people with compromised immune systems, this includes people on a whole host of meds for psoriasis and arthritus, could become sick...JJ

Agreed entirely.

In the first paper.... http://douglasbaldwin.com/Baldwin-IJGFS-Preprint.pdf ... It appears to be combining several charts which would be for a simplified presentation...

The second paper ... http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html ... separates the steps for a proper sous vide....

I snipped your post for brevity, but perhaps its just as simple as "proper" vs. "this will work".

Are you immediately storing your sausages, or serving them? The reason I ask is that the purpose of pasteurization is ultimately to increase the shelf life/length of time you can store in the fridge. When you cook a protein in a traditional way, you never come close to pasteurization.

So, if you're immediately serving them - I wouldn't stress too much. If you're SVin'g at 155 for 3 hours, you're already well past pasteurization at that temp. If you're trying to get them to be a tad less dry, I'd do it at 150 - Kenji Lopez-Alt described SV'd sausage at 150 as "Fully firm and extra juicy, with a very smooth texture throughout."

If you goal is pasteurization, I would go with the more conservative numbers - only because we as home cooks don't have the ability to test for pathogens, control our fridge/freezer temperatures as precise as those that come up with the charts. Better safe than sorry, although again - you're just attempting to increase shelf life since you'd be storing it outside the temperature danger zone anyway.

I usually icewater bath, then immediately into the freezer. I might put one pack in the fridge to taste test the next day. In my opinion, straight out of the "sausage hot tub", the flavors are kinda flat.

Total time from frozen to pasteurized, 1" thick steak or chop .... 1.75 + 1.5 = 3 hours and 15 minutes at 140 F....
Anyhow, that's how I read this....

Dave, its funny you posted that. When I originally started SV, I misread the tables. I thought you had to combine the cook time chart with pasteurized chart time. Not sure how or I why I thought that. Thats how I came up with a 3 + hour SV time. I just stuck with the 3 hours, to ensure any nasties are dealt with. And honestly, since the SV does all the work...

This is what I'd do if I had frozen food going into SV and then also pasteurizing.

I just cant imagine that, but if the need calls for it.

This was kinda hidden in my reply above in Dave's quote because you'd have to expand the quote to see my response in blue and red:
If I'm going to SV I'm going to use the pasteurizing chart. Because if something comes up and I can't eat it I can throw it in an ice water bath in the fridge to rapidly cool and eat it within the 3-4 week period since it's pasteurized and in it's sealed SV bag. This disclaimer paragraph was under the 2.3 reheating chart in link #2 above but not link #1 heating chart. "If the food is not being pasteurized (as is the case with fish and rare meat), it is important that the food come up to temperature and be served within four hours. Unlike conventional cooking methods, this is easily accomplished by cutting the food into individual portion sizes before cooking–which is why cooking times over four hours are not shown for temperatures below 131°F (55°C). It is important that only immune-competent individuals consume unpasteurized food and that they understand the risks associated with eating unpasteurized food."

I do like the specie specific charts and like farmerchad mentioned it's usually a bit longer in the bath till I get to it or dinner time if starting the SV cook in the morning.

All good points.

There is also a difference as to whether you are going to a Log5, Log7, or higher reduction in pathogens.

I thought the same, reading the fine print on the 2 charts, they offer the same reduction for Listeria.

Something I did notice though, in the fine print: Time sufficient to pasteurize meat, fish, or poultry vs. Pasteurization Time for Meat (Beef, Pork, and Lamb

One chart seems all purpose, the other, far more specific. I think this is what daveomak up above was getting at.

 

[daveomak]

I purchase big packs of chicken breasts, thighs etc. all the time... break them down into 4-6 in a vac bag with seasoning and freeze... Plop a bag in the SV in the morning and dinner is in the oven.... no mess, no fuss... throw a spud and onion in the oven to bake.. I'm in hog heaven... I love the ease of cooking frozen meals.... but then, I'm lazy....

 

[farmerchad]

I purchase big packs of chicken breasts, thighs etc. all the time... break them down into 4-6 in a vac bag with seasoning and freeze... Plop a bag in the SV in the morning and dinner is in the oven.... no mess, no fuss... throw a spud and onion in the oven to bake.. I'm in hog heaven... I love the ease of cooking frozen meals.... but then, I'm lazy....

Hmm, have you tried putting the tater in the SV? Im wanting to try corn on the cob sometime. Probably during Summer, when you can get the good stuff.

 

[daveomak]

Taters wouldn't get hot enough ... They can harbor botulism, being a soil grown root... corn might work... put a bunch of butter in with it...

 

[daveomak]

Corn on the cob....

"https://www.youtube.com/embed/4CSTLhhJtac"

 

[chopsaw]

I do corn on the cob alot . Best corn I've eaten . I do mine at 170 , some don't agree with that , but perfect for my taste .

 

[farmerchad]

Taters wouldn't get hot enough ... They can harbor botulism, being a soil grown root... corn might work... put a bunch of butter in with it...

Your defiantly right about harboring botulism. Being a man of the agricultural trades, I cant deny that virtually all crops have the risk. Pretty much if its outside, the risk is there. Botulism exists in the soil. No way around it.

I didnt think much about it, but potatoes are fairly dense.

Corn on the cob....

"https://www.youtube.com/embed/4CSTLhhJtac"

Thanks for the link.

I do corn on the cob alot . Best corn I've eaten . I do mine at 170 , some don't agree with that , but perfect for my taste .

How is the texture? I like a corn that has some crunch, but not raw-like crunch. Just a little resistance.

 

[chopsaw]

How is the texture? I like a corn that has some crunch, but not raw-like crunch. Just a little resistance.

I used to do it at the recommended 183 , but saw an episode of Americas test kitchen that used 170 ( on the stove ) had something to do with the starch gets tough after 170 . I don't like raw either ,, this had some bite , but tender .

 

[gmc2003]

I'm not a SV'er so excuse my lack of knowledge, but what would be gained by doing corn on the cob in an SV.

Chris