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New natural gas heating system

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clifish

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Sooo, last week my neighbors tree fell and cut my neutral line, leaving both hot lines coming into the house. One older tube TV went up in smoke and 10 days later I have a dead hot tub and a heating system needing parts. The system is from 2010 (I know not that old to me). It is a Burnham Alpine system that has given me problems since it was installed. My hot water heater is on it's last legs and the parts bill is coming in at over $3k to "possibly" fix the burner. At this point I think for $10K I will just replace it all. Any recommendations on brand/type? The service company is recommending a Navion combo unit with tank less hot water. My daughter likes to take long hot showers, she can be in there for 45 minutes. We generally have soft acidic water so I don't think scale will be a problem. Anyone have some thoughts on the topic?
 
Sorry about the disaster, that's gotta really stink.
Many, many thoughts... Might not be enough room on the internet for them all. May also cost you some money, as I'll probably point out some stuff your contractor either doesn't know, or won't tell you, and it'll mean different equipment.

Let me list a few things as a checklist. No particular order after the first few.

1: Do not allow the contractor to size the system without you verifying that it's correct. Do not pay some joker for a manual J calc, and if anyone says they want to do one, run. They know 0 about heating systems. You can do your own load calc in about 30 seconds, and if the contractor doesn't know that or doesn't tell you that, they are either too stupid to install a system, or they're a crook who's trying to sell you a bill of goods. No third option.

2: Daughter's 45 minute showers would cease in my house after the first one reached about 10 minutes. That's what they invented the hot tub for. Water bills must be horrible, and if you have a well, that's a lot of demand on it imho. Either way, I'm not paying to dump hot water down the drain 45 minutes at a time. Ymmv.

3: If your current system isn't a direct vent system with both vents installed, do not even consider using whoever installed that. Meaning, if it goes out a chimney, that contractor would be buried somewhere out in my backyard.

4: I'll assume you have a boiler from the terms you said. You didn't specify if it's a furnace or a boiler (unless I'm supposed to look up that model). I ripped out a Burnham boiler when I moved into the house I'm in now. Horrifyingly oversized, and inefficient on a scale that's hard to describe. Literally, I own the house because the utility costs bankrupted the previous owners (I bought it repo'ed for cash) and since 2018, I've cut the gas consumption by >85%. It's a BIG house, and there's 3 heating systems in it. Boiler for one side, forced air for the other, and gas radiant in the garage.

5: LI NY, you might get a little coastal influence I don't, but largely we've got the same weather. If you can PM me some PDFs of your gas bills last winter, I'll tell you what they say about the house. Or just give me all the pertinent data. # days billed, CCF, Avg temp, Degree Days if shown, what gas company (they will most likely have the weather history on their site). Take note, I don't care what the Sq Ft'age is and I don't care what sizes your windows are. That's all a scam where they bill you hourly to do a s*** load of math that not only means nothing, it's dead wrong in every case and intentionally so. That calculation is horse___ and everyone knows it. I've seen stats that 98% of all heating systems in the US are oversized. Not a question in my mind the troubles you've had with that old one were from exactly that. And don't let them tell you that modulation is going to fix that oversize issue.. It doesn't. And I don't care what the turndown ratio is.

I have a Bosch boiler, and if you know about Bosch, you know it wasn't the cheapest one I could get. Difference in price was unknown, and I don't care. It is SILENT. Literally, put your head against it and you can't tell if it's running or not. It is efficient, it has been bulletproof, worth every penny. I did install EVERYthing new though. Not the baseboard and lines themselves, but every valve, trinket, zone pump, controller, plumbing, everything.

Mine is not a combi, I had already installed a tankless water heater. They come with some considerations... Some may not have a good time with new faucets. While they're super fast, and super efficient, you must use commercial faucets because any new faucet in the past decade or so won't flow enough water for them to go into high fire. I installed a Moen kitchen faucet, and the thing would not flow enough, so the water heater took 30 seconds to heat up. Other faucets would raise to full temp (130F) in 3 seconds. Be aware of this in advance. In the kitchen, you might even want a tiny 1Gal tank under the sink if you cook a lot.

Not sure who your gas company is, but check into a rebate. UGI here has a $1200 rebate on a new combi boiler. That's a govt program so I assume all gas companies have similar programs, but sometimes they're geographically limited, so look into that.

I have a spreadsheet for tracking my usage from the last couple years. I installed a new furnace in March of 25 and wanted to quantify what effect that had. I'd be happy to send a copy if you were interested. Might be a bit daunting, (it's big) but, shows usage by day, factored for heating degree days (temp) and all manner of comparisons from previous years. Also has notes for when changes were made and what change, which allows one to see what a particular change can do.

I also have an electric sheet which shows that removing a York 93.3% condensing HE furnace with a single stage blower, and replacing with a Goodman 96.5% with a variable speed blower, reduced the electric cost in the house by >$700 in one year. And that was NOT changing out the central air unit with is still the old one from 2007. Furnace paid for itself in 1 year in gas and electric. Never mind the comfort difference.

Anyhoo, if interested, send me those gas bills if you want. I have to stop typing. I'm at work, and if I worked for me, I'd be fired...
 
Sooo, last week my neighbors tree fell and cut my neutral line, leaving both hot lines coming into the house. One older tube TV went up in smoke and 10 days later I have a dead hot tub and a heating system needing parts. The system is from 2010 (I know not that old to me). It is a Burnham Alpine system that has given me problems since it was installed. My hot water heater is on it's last legs and the parts bill is coming in at over $3k to "possibly" fix the burner. At this point I think for $10K I will just replace it all. Any recommendations on brand/type? The service company is recommending a Navion combo unit with tank less hot water. My daughter likes to take long hot showers, she can be in there for 45 minutes. We generally have soft acidic water so I don't think scale will be a problem. Anyone have some thoughts on the topic?
Navion Combi :
Hi !Welcome to the club !
We replaced our entire Air handler/ AC unit.
But the air flow was bad due to a Heat coil that was clogging the airflow. Over 20 yrs old.
Called a plumber to get Heatcoil and boiler furnace leaks .
Plumbing repairs were $7K, using the existing boiler, which is a Burham 20 ys +.
Not to mention did not have $7 K to bandaid an old unit ?
2nd Option was the Navion Combi, complete new unit @ $ 14 K.
Went that Rte. It was late Dec, getting cold out !, and did not have the option to screw around pricing units.
Only Negative is when you use Domestic Hot Water, the Combi shuts off to heat yur home., Returns after Domestic Hot demand stops.
The Hot water is Unlimited and has 2 zone Temtp. adjustments, For heating and Dom water.
Our gas usage has dropped 20% and I hope to see it very low now in the summer: using only Dom water.
The unit needs to be flushed out yearly, see what happens in Dec ?
Yes a nice rebate, But more importantly, NO INTERESTS LOAN @ 7 Yrs from our Gas Co.
No $ down, reasonable payment below $200/Mth.
I can live with that.
Retired have no Morgt., Car payments. Ect.
I have a peice of mind now, knowing Im good to heat/cool my home.
Look into No Interests loans from yur local Gas Co.!
Need any more Info reach out !
Navion is a nice unit, very quick heating .
Takes a min to heat up to hot, But very efficient !
 
Thanks to both of you, I will look into my gas bills (National grid). My other house in PA is propane heat and only 5 years old so hard to compare. Current burner here is the Burnham Alpine 95% efficient condensing boiler and is direct vent. ( https://www.usboiler.net/product/alpine-high-efficiency-condensing-gas-boiler.html) The hot water heater is treated as a zone so no vent. It is also set to replenish heated water over heated zones first.

Will also look into rebates. also load calculation have no idea what that is.
 
This is the unit being proposed https://www.navieninc.com/products/ncb-250-150h about $9100 installed
I believe that is the unit I have?
It’s very quick to heat up.
I had some extra work done
The gas line had to be upgraded to !1/2 inch for the boiler.
The Heat Coil in the Air Handler cabinet was installed and newly piped.
So? Yur price sounds about right?
Ask about Zero Interest financing!
 
Last edited:
I believe that is the unit I have?
It’s very quick to heat up.
I had some extra work done
The gas line had to be upgraded to !1/2 inch for the boiler.
The Heat Coil in the Air Handler cabinet was installed and newly piped.
So? Yur price sounds about right?
Ask about Zero Interest financing!
Thanks, not worrying about financing paying cash. I have used this company since 2010 when they installed the Alpine system when I converted to gas from oil. They have also installed my new central AC unit. My concern is I am reading the Navi system might only last 5 - 7 years, I can't believe that people would put up with that.

But honestly, I am planning on leaving NY in the next 5 years so that might be the next owners problem.
 
That looks like a really nice unit. Possibly a bit overkill, but I see the TDR (Turn Down Ratio) is 11:1 on the thing so it's capable of running at ~9% of total capacity when demand is lower. I'd still prefer it was smaller, but a boiler like this isn't as dependent of sizing correctness as a furnace would be. For a furnace it's simply the end of the world. They don't have the ability to turn down (modulate) the way a boiler does. If they make a smaller one, I'd be getting that.

Without looking closer, I'm guessing that's a 250KBTU water heater and a 150KBTU Boiler, simultaneously. Again, I do not own a combi, so they may have some nuance of sizing that means they need to be bigger than I expect given what I know about the demand. But let's get to the demand.

I looked at the files you sent in the PM. Your company does things a little different than mine, but it's basically the same and I'll explain. They also give more info on the bill, with each one showing the usage history. That's cool. I'll look up the site for the weather history when time allows. But, we can make a pretty good guess from this.

So, your usage: They use "Therms", where I (and my gas company) use CCF. A CF is a cubic foot of gas. That has 1030 BTUs of energy. A CCF is 100 Cubic Feet of gas, which has 103000 BTUs of energy. The first C = Roman numeral C = 100 (ie: a C note = 100 bucks). Now, a "Therm" is a relatively new unit they started using to make comparisons easier. It represents 100000 BTUs of input energy. So, more or less a CCF. In this way, it's easier to compare to say Propane which has 2544 BTU's per cubic foot, but where it's sold by the gallon and a gallon represents 35.97 cubic feet of propane "Gas", and makes it require a BS in mathematics to really determine which is cheaper, gas or propane. Therm's makes it consistent across fuel types (oil @ 138500/Gallon, wood, coal, whatever.) I pay by the CCF, so to compare to propane requires some math. Gas is way cheaper, but propane companies like to play games with the words to make it seem that's not so.

Ok, so your peak "Month" was February (as was everyone else's) and the billing cycle showed 29 days of usage between meter reads ending on the 26th. CCFs were 223 on the meter (reads in volume), Therms was 232. So you used 232 x 100,000 = 23,200,000 BTU's of input energy during that 29 day period. Take 23,200,000 and divide by 29 days, then divide by 24 hours and we get 33,333 BTUH's (BTU Hours) of total gas input for the month (average).

So there is the 'Load Calc' for the house. Done. Irrefutably accurate, and for the coldest winter we've had possibly in our lifetimes. Don't care about the windows, don't care about the walls, what direction it faces, none of that. I turned the heat on and this is what it the gas company says I used, done. Only questions that remain are, how much does the demand increase when the temps are at their lowest, is that a linear progression, and do I have enough baseboards to get that heat out of the heating appliance? The last one being the big one.

In theory, and on very nice new construction, yes the graph is a straight line. But if the house is not tight and there is a measure of draft (stack effect), where hot air rises through the structure and out, then it becomes non linear. My house for instance, the "new" section was built in 1915, so they were not concerned with stack effect so mine is quite non-linear. But I've seen other folks online who have real-time usage data show that some homes literally use gas in such a way that a graph of the temp and a graph of the gas consumption, the lines cover each other all but when it's windy.

For my house where I have data of usage by day and temps by day, it shows that I used 58,796 BTU's on my Feb bill, ended around the 8th I think. However, I had 2 days where demand was 80,240 avg. So blindly looking at my 58KBTU average won't work any better than your 33K. Gotta add at least another 1/3, and online I've seen recommendations of 40%. Whatever, still puts you in the 50KBTU range for heating load, and don't forget those useage numbers include your kitchen and hot water. For me, kitchen is electric (induction/resistive ovens) but water is also gas (tankless).

The third of those questions was about baseboard. If you have the typical stuff, copper pipe and fins, that's about 620 BTUs per lineal foot at 180F. Measure how many feet in total in the house, and you have the max energy you can remove from that boiler. If your capacity of the baseboard is low, and I'm betting it is, like way low, then the boiler short cycles something horrible and that's why you've had issues with the previous boiler. They are designed to turn on and stay on. Not turn on and off. This situation is far worse with a furnace and improper ductwork, but that's another story. I could type here for hours about all the issues these two problems cause.

The biggest issue most times is people think replacing the boiler / furnace is the answer, when often the issue is to fix the house or change the ductwork / radiators. If those won't allow the boiler / furnace to put the entire heating capacity into the living space, no amount of sizing and installing is going to fix it. In CA, they have made it illegal to install a duct "Bypass" on a heating system. It's against code now, and damn well about time. Seems everyone has some mickey-mouse rigg'n on a heating system that's industry std. Drives me crazy.

Long story short, I'm not thrilled about the 250K / 150K numbers on that model. Not going to say outright that it's wrong, but I have a bad feeling about it. I would like to learn more about it. If there is a smaller model, get that. My water heater is a 200Kbtu tankless, way overkill for my needs. However, my house is a 7 BR, 7 full bath with 2 kitchens and it services all of it. Capacity 13gpm @ 130F. Usual summer gas use is 2-3 CCF, so about $3-4 / month for hot water. So I don't care. I also had no choice in availability when I bought it, so its fine. But with time, choices and more info, I might have chosen differently.

When you were typing your reply, a friend stopped in my office to ask about a similar problem he's going through, sizing a gas boiler and water heater, and he's the second one to stop here in the last 7 days, lol. I'll cut this off here and follow up later.
 
Thanks, not worrying about financing paying cash. I have used this company since 2010 when they installed the Alpine system when I converted to gas from oil. They have also installed my new central AC unit. My concern is I am reading the Navi system might only last 5 - 7 years, I can't believe that people would put up with that.

But honestly, I am planning on leaving NY in the next 5 years so that might be the next owners problem.
 
The hot water heater is treated as a zone so no vent. It is also set to replenish heated water over heated zones first.
Not sure what you mean here. My house had a water heater "zone" when I bought it. The boiler heated water that ran in pipes about 80' across the basement to an indirect 80gal tank which then supplied the hot water to the west side of the house. I did away with that day one. For the second sentence, are you saying you have a re-circ system? (Constantly circulating hot water)? I'm not following what you mean.
Will also look into rebates. also load calculation have no idea what that is.
Don't tell the installer about the rebate, you get that from the gas company separately.

Load calc is where someone tries to do math to figure out how much heat your house will use and then buys the heating system using that info. Trouble is, there is no way to do that, so they make a wild ___ guess based upon nothing, after asking for you to measure everything under the sun, then they factor the result by a number that's insane, and whalla, here's your bill for my time. It's a dog n pony show. A "Free" load calc for my house said 450K btu for the west side furnace. They don't make them that size... lol. I figured a 60K was about right, but got an 80K last years top of the line model basically free, so I took that. Variable and modulating, but still never ran more than 13 hours last heating season. Confirming what I already knew, it's too big. However, I had zones off so factually, it's pretty close to correct. A lot closer than anyone else was going to install, that's for sure. For 4600 sq ft of 1915 construction, it's fine.

A similar unit, single stage and single speed fan, installed in a friends rental, didn't last 1 year before it broke down due to short cycling. Another friend just had an 80K unit replaced fully at THREE years old, due to so many problems, they threw in the towel and ripped it out. 80K is a LOT of furnace... It's a rare house that requires that amount of heat...
 
This is the unit being proposed https://www.navieninc.com/products/ncb-250-150h about $9100 installed
After looking some more, yea, these specs on this tell me this is not going to work. Oh, it'll turn on and run for a while, but you'll have issues... Somebody just pulled this model number out of their ___. My guess is it's like many of these folks who only install one unit and have never considered actually sizing one.

Of this family of unit, without looking at the weather history data from your area, my personal choice for you would be

and if you're somehow scared of that not being enough
But now you are well into the dept where the unit is too big and will be cycling in order to operate in that house. Your gas bill says you used 33KBTUs of gas during the coldest record cold month in history, and someone is recommending a 150KBTU boiler. I guarantee you don't have baseboard to get that heat out of it. No way in ___.

You really need to measure how much baseboard there is in the house. You could even be generous and measure the covers instead of how much actually has fins on. If there are other items like kickspace heaters under the kitchen cabinets or big registers somewhere, mention those too. Given the age I wouldn't think you have in-floor heat but mention that if so. No baseboard to measure if that's the case.

But no question, I'd get a smaller unit than what is being proposed.
 
I will measure the baseboards, we have 1 toe kick heater under a cabinet from a kitchen remodel a couple years ago.

"Not sure what you mean here. My house had a water heater "zone" when I bought it. The boiler heated water that ran in pipes about 80' across the basement to an indirect 80gal tank which then supplied the hot water to the west side of the house. I did away with that day one. For the second sentence, are you saying you have a re-circ system? (Constantly circulating hot water)? I'm not following what you mean."

My system now is like yours, an indirect 55 gal tank off the boiler. The only reason i am replacing (other than reliability issue is from the power surge. To fix it is about $3000+ in parts and then have the water tank on it's lasts legs.
 
125' feet of baseboard and 1 toe kick heater there are no rebates available from the gas co.
 
125' feet of baseboard and 1 toe kick heater there are no rebates available from the gas co.
Gotcha,

Ok, so 125 x 620 = 77500 btu's of radiation, and let's add some for the kickspace heater. Call it 85K. I have 2 of them at my house and one at the previous house, and I don't think they amount to a hill of beans. Still, we're still no where close to 150Kbtu. That unit that was spec'd will be massively over size. So much so I'm really not thrilled about these numbers. A boiler can be more forgiving than a furnace, but not that much more.

As to the rebates, that sucks. I went and looked too, not seeing any.
If it makes you feel any better, they were offering $1500 back on a new boiler 3 months after I got mine. Lol.

Here's ours as of now.

I'd also be curious to know what issues you've had with the unit that's there now. Using the link you gave, that appears to be a decent box, and they have models that are in the size range of what would work for you. I don't know exactly which one you have, but you're already armed now with the heating load numbers you need for a decision. How close is the one that's there now? Is that also way too big? Did you have igniter issues? Inducer fan issues? Control board issues? All are caused by too many on/off cycles which is caused by being too big.
 
Gotcha,

Ok, so 125 x 620 = 77500 btu's of radiation, and let's add some for the kickspace heater. Call it 85K. I have 2 of them at my house and one at the previous house, and I don't think they amount to a hill of beans. Still, we're still no where close to 150Kbtu. That unit that was spec'd will be massively over size. So much so I'm really not thrilled about these numbers. A boiler can be more forgiving than a furnace, but not that much more.

As to the rebates, that sucks. I went and looked too, not seeing any.
If it makes you feel any better, they were offering $1500 back on a new boiler 3 months after I got mine. Lol.

Here's ours as of now.

I'd also be curious to know what issues you've had with the unit that's there now. Using the link you gave, that appears to be a decent box, and they have models that are in the size range of what would work for you. I don't know exactly which one you have, but you're already armed now with the heating load numbers you need for a decision. How close is the one that's there now? Is that also way too big? Did you have igniter issues? Inducer fan issues? Control board issues? All are caused by too many on/off cycles which is caused by being too big.
Not sure on the issues all I know is the "red screen of death" showed up and it went down several times a year. Inducer fan is loud on start up when it is cold outside, I can hear it when in my hot tub outside 75' away. The power surge took out 3 transformers, the Taco control board, Sage control board and the main control board also the hot water tanks control board.

I called in another company to see what they recommend, that is next week.
 
Not sure on the issues all I know is the "red screen of death" showed up and it went down several times a year. Inducer fan is loud on start up when it is cold outside, I can hear it when in my hot tub outside 75' away. The power surge took out 3 transformers, the Taco control board, Sage control board and the main control board also the hot water tanks control board.

I called in another company to see what they recommend, that is next week.
When a unit short cycles, the air going through the inducer fan is extra hot. The heat exchanger is supposed to remove the heat from that exhaust, but since the unit is overheating because it can't get rid of the heat through the baseboards, the exhaust air goes over temp until it shuts down. What will happen then is, the fan cage itself will break. There's a ring around the outside edge of the squirrel cage which is supposed to hold that together. The fan is plastic (yea, tell me they didn't design that to fail). The plastic gets hot, 3700 rpms and centrifugal force snaps that. Now it flings out against the housing and eats a hole in that, all while sounding like a kid with a card in the bike spokes, just way worse. Now it leaks, so the barometric sensor won't allow the thing to start because it doesn't want to asphyxiate the occupants, and the other choice is to shut off and freeze them to death, lol.

Ok. Well, I'll add a few more tips. Whatever brand you get, do yourself a favor and get on to supplyhouse.com and see if they stock parts for it. There, you can buy the common stuff so that in the event one of the simple things fails, you're not on the hook for an emergency call to replace an igniter or something stupid. I want to know I can get the stuff, and I buy those items in advance for the brand new unit. If I never use em? Who cares. My last furnace went through 3 inducer fans and 3 controller boards in 6 years. Talk about pizz me off... I had more money in those 6 parts than I have in the new furnace. And I did several of those myself. I feel your pain, and worst of all, they don't often go down in July... It's Friday at 6:30pm when you get home and the kitchen has frost on the walls. :D
 
When a unit short cycles, the air going through the inducer fan is extra hot. The heat exchanger is supposed to remove the heat from that exhaust, but since the unit is overheating because it can't get rid of the heat through the baseboards, the exhaust air goes over temp until it shuts down. What will happen then is, the fan cage itself will break. There's a ring around the outside edge of the squirrel cage which is supposed to hold that together. The fan is plastic (yea, tell me they didn't design that to fail). The plastic gets hot, 3700 rpms and centrifugal force snaps that. Now it flings out against the housing and eats a hole in that, all while sounding like a kid with a card in the bike spokes, just way worse. Now it leaks, so the barometric sensor won't allow the thing to start because it doesn't want to asphyxiate the occupants, and the other choice is to shut off and freeze them to death, lol.

Ok. Well, I'll add a few more tips. Whatever brand you get, do yourself a favor and get on to supplyhouse.com and see if they stock parts for it. There, you can buy the common stuff so that in the event one of the simple things fails, you're not on the hook for an emergency call to replace an igniter or something stupid. I want to know I can get the stuff, and I buy those items in advance for the brand new unit. If I never use em? Who cares. My last furnace went through 3 inducer fans and 3 controller boards in 6 years. Talk about pizz me off... I had more money in those 6 parts than I have in the new furnace. And I did several of those myself. I feel your pain, and worst of all, they don't often go down in July... It's Friday at 6:30pm when you get home and the kitchen has frost on the walls. :D
How about Superbowl Sunday with 3" of snow on the ground, they actually showed up and fixed under the service contract. This is actually the only time they want me to pay for parts since 2010...I did not lead on about the power surge.
 
How about Superbowl Sunday with 3" of snow on the ground, they actually showed up and fixed under the service contract. This is actually the only time they want me to pay for parts since 2010...I did not lead on about the power surge.
Well then that's pretty remarkable. Can't expect them to work on something that got vaporized by a power surge. But the inducer making noise, there should be an answer for that. Why is that making so much noise...
 
Well then that's pretty remarkable. Can't expect them to work on something that got vaporized by a power surge. But the inducer making noise, there should be an answer for that. Why is that making so much noise...
They were playing with combustion analyzers to lessen the noise, never really went away especially when it is cold outside.
 
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