My Traeger turned off in the middle of the night with 10 whole chickens and 10 leg quarters

[archdan]

Hi Everybody,

I'm new here and a relatively new smoker.

The chickens started out at -1 celsius (mildly frozen)

I put the chickens in the smoker overnight on the "smoke" setting of my Traeger. I was awake for about 2.5 hours until 11:30 pm and everything was fine. Went to bed. When I woke up this morning at 5:00 am the smoker was off and the chickens had an internal temp of 20 celsius. I turned the smoker back on. Are these chickens edible or not?

 

[daveomak]

What temp did they reach that you know of ??  Sound as if they were never above 160 F...  I'm think they need tossing...

 

[archdan]

Ya I'd say it reached 110 or so then cooled down to 70 for probably 4 hours. I finished the smoke and took them off between 165-175. Would the high finishing temp kill everything off? There was no smell or discolouration after the smoke.

 

[johnmeyer]

Doesn't sound too safe to me.

To avoid this in the future, get a Maverick (or similar) "remote read" thermometer and make sure it has the low temperature alarm feature (my ET-732 has it). If you are smoking at 225 on an electric (most of which permit a fairly wide variation in temperature), set the low alarm (for the probe that is measuring the smoker temp) to something like 180. That is well above any temperature that would be low enough where safety would be an issue, but far away enough from the set point that the only way it could go that low is if the electricity went out or the smoker malfunctioned.

I do this on any long smoke, and it has saved my butt more than once.

 

 

[archdan]

My traeger has a smoke setting which is below 82 Celsius or 180 Fahrenheit. I usually just leave it on that setting for about 8-10 hours until inside the chicken gets to 74 C or 165 F. Should I be smoking on a higher setting?

 

[daveomak]

Yes , on the higher temperature...   It is recommended a temp of 225 F be the minimum temp for cooking meats so the IT gets above 165 (chicken) within the 4 hour window to adequately kill food borne pathogens...  ALSO..  when generating smoke, oxygen is consumed and you are cooking in a low oxygen environment which supports botulism... thus again the 225 F minimum...

 

[johnmeyer]

 
Yes , on the higher temperature...   It is recommended a temp of 225 F be the minimum temp for cooking meats so the IT gets above 165 (chicken) within the 4 hour window to adequately kill food borne pathogens...  ALSO..  when generating smoke, oxygen is consumed and you are cooking in a low oxygen environment which supports botulism... thus again the 225 F minimum...

Now wait a minute ...

I am quite aware that botulism requires an anaerobic (no oxygen) environment in order to breed, but I just did a quick Google search and could not find any instance of botulism being created as a result of the slightly lower oxygen content found in the inside of a smoker. What I did find were lots of stories about leaving the meat in the danger zone for more than four hours or, for bacon and similar products, not doing the curing step properly.

I am always willing to learn, but the pathogen problems associated specifically with smoking don't seem to include the somewhat reduced oxygen content of the smoker.

I just did some more Googling, and found Wade's post on this subject here in this forum. Click on it and read what he had to say. It exactly reflects my thoughts on the subject.

Botsulism: Just curious about the safety always preached

However, I can certainly be convinced if someone can provide some actual facts about how much oxygen is inside a smoker. I'm betting that it actually isn't much lower than the air we breathe, because of the amount of air moving through the smoker that never touches the chips or coals.

I also note that Dave posted just a few months ago that:

"Botulism is anaerobic, so not an issue for most smoking recipes."

Bottom line: I don't think you need to worry about oxygen levels in the smoker. However, I would be concerned about having had the chicken in the danger zone for more than four hours.

===================================

P.S. I did finally find what appears to be an attempt to measure the oxygen level inside a smoker:

Smoker Science

You have to go 3/4 of the way down the page where you will find this sentence:

"We've measured the fraction of oxygen consumed in many smokers, and it runs from half to 80%."

That doesn't sound like it would be enough oxygen deficiency to cause a botulism problem given that the National Center for Home Food Preservation says that the oxygen level must be below 2%. Since oxygen makes up roughly 21% of air, reducing it by half or even 80% will still keep it well above that threshold.

 

[daveomak]

 

 
Yes , on the higher temperature...   It is recommended a temp of 225 F be the minimum temp for cooking meats so the IT gets above 165 (chicken) within the 4 hour window to adequately kill food borne pathogens...  ALSO..  when generating smoke, oxygen is consumed and you are cooking in a low oxygen environment which supports botulism... thus again the 225 F minimum...

Now wait a minute ...

I am quite aware that botulism requires an anaerobic (no oxygen) environment in order to breed, but I just did a quick Google search and could not find any instance of botulism being created as a result of the slightly lower oxygen content found in the inside of a smoker. What I did find were lots of stories about leaving the meat in the danger zone for more than four hours or, for bacon and similar products, not doing the curing step properly.

I am always willing to learn, but the pathogen problems associated specifically with smoking don't seem to include the somewhat reduced oxygen content of the smoker.

I just did some more Googling, and found Wade's post on this subject here in this forum. Click on it and read what he had to say. It exactly reflects my thoughts on the subject.

Botsulism: Just curious about the safety always preached

However, I can certainly be convinced if someone can provide some actual facts about how much oxygen is inside a smoker. I'm betting that it actually isn't much lower than the air we breathe, because of the amount of air moving through the smoker that never touches the chips or coals.

I also note that Dave posted just a few months ago that:

"Botulism is anaerobic, so not an issue for most smoking recipes."

Bottom line: I don't think you need to worry about oxygen levels in the smoker. However, I would be concerned about having had the chicken in the danger zone for more than four hours.

===================================

P.S. I did finally find what appears to be an attempt to measure the oxygen level inside a smoker:

Smoker Science

You have to go 3/4 of the way down the page where you will find this sentence:

"We've measured the fraction of oxygen consumed in many smokers, and it runs from half to 80%."

That doesn't sound like it would be enough oxygen deficiency to cause a botulism problem given that the National Center for Home Food Preservation says that the oxygen level must be below 2%. Since oxygen makes up roughly 21% of air, reducing it by half or even 80% will still keep it well above that threshold.

"Botulism is anaerobic, so not an issue for most smoking recipes."

Can you please cite that thread..

 

[daveomak]

John Meyer...  Please take note...   I found the thread......    YOU POSTED THAT STATEMENT...   I just copied and pasted it from your post..   We all make mistakes...  No apology necessary....   although I do feel like the president.. folks taking stuff out of context to promote their ambitions...

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Wow, that's a lot of information -- even more when you cut/paste it twice!!

I still don't buy into the recommendation to not rinse. I understand the concept, but given how much stuff splashes around as you handle, cut, move the chicken, unless you are using a high pressure sprayer, I don't think the particles from the rinsing are going to put any more gunk around the kitchen than when you accidentally flick some of the packaging and the juice goes all over the place. I personally feel it is far more important to get the remaining slaughterhouse juices out of my food. Back in business school we got to see how mass-produced chicken is prepared for market, and when you see the tanks of water that are used to clean the chicken, you too would want to make sure you get rid of the stuff left over from the entrails, etc.

While much of what you posted duplicates my original post that started this thread, I was hoping perhaps you would get into one other topic that is at the heart of so many of the food safety posts in this forum: the danger zone.

It has never been clear to me whether I should worry about this. If I eventually get my food into the 130+ range, and keep it there for long enough time to kill the bacteria, then do I need to care about the bacteria? I am well aware that the king of food pathogens, botulism, is actually a toxin created by the bacteria, and that the toxin will survive heating. However, botulism is anaerobic, so not an issue for most smoking recipes.

So my question is: if I eventually heat my food to one of the FDA-approved time/what is the actual danger created by leaving meat and poultry in the danger zone for too long?

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post #8 of 11

3/12/17 at 7:59am

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• DaveOmak
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John, morning... You are correct....  that piece sucked...   BAD...  anyway, there are charts displayed that are from the gummint...  

You should probably re think the statement you made, that I copied and pasted below....

 However, botulism is anaerobic, so not an issue for most smoking recipes.

++++++++++++

Here is the thread...  for those interested......

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...rs-and-food-safety-were-safer-than-we-thought

 

[daveomak]

As an aside....   granted, botulism is anaerobic...    although I have no idea what level of oxygen makes it OK for botulism to grow, it warrants being cautious...  If tests indicated 16% or 12% or 5% oxygen, inside your smoker, to become a "possible" breeding ground for botulism, what would you do...  stop using nitrite ??   Anywho...  botulism is the deadliest pathogen known to man...   do as you wish... 

I just try and provide some sort of information, I think is correct from my reading, to give the members here a starting point to make safe food...

Seems you, John, and a couple others have a desire to pick apart some of the stuff I put up on the forum...   That's OK...   Honest debate, using facts, is always welcome...  I have been wrong many times and will continue to make mistakes...  Albeit, no intentionally....  

I find it funny you cited your own statement as mine.......   I haven't done that yet, BUT, stick around, I'm sure I will get there someday...

No hard feelings...  all we are trying to do is help folks be safe...

 

[johnmeyer]

 
As an aside....   granted, botulism is anaerobic...    although I have no idea what level of oxygen makes it OK for botulism to grow, it warrants being cautious...  If tests indicated 16% or 12% or 5% oxygen, inside your smoker, to become a "possible" breeding ground for botulism, what would you do...  stop using nitrite ??   Anywho...  botulism is the deadliest pathogen known to man...   do as you wish... 

I just try and provide some sort of information, I think is correct from my reading, to give the members here a starting point to make safe food...

Seems you, John, and a couple others have a desire to pick apart some of the stuff I put up on the forum...   That's OK...   Honest debate, using facts, is always welcome...  I have been wrong many times and will continue to make mistakes...  Albeit, no intentionally....  

I find it funny you cited your own statement as mine.......   I haven't done that yet, BUT, stick around, I'm sure I will get there someday...

No hard feelings...  all we are trying to do is help folks be safe...

I did end up copying my own quote when I linked to that post. Sorry about that.

I forgot to cite the source for the oxygen threshold below which botulism will grow. Here it is:

Ensuring Safe Canned Foods

The source for the above is The National Center For Home Food Preservation. They are cited by the USDA as the authoritative source for the USDA's own numbers (I can provide a link where they do so). So, as my kids would say, they're legit.

Their oxygen number below which botulism might grow is 2% (i.e., this is their definition of "anaerobic"). This compares to the 21% oxygen concentration found in the air we breath. Since the source cited in my previous post indicated that about 1/4 to 1/2 the air's oxygen remains inside a smoker, based on actual measurement, it would appear that even if 80% of the oxygen were used up (higher than any measured consumption), the oxygen concentration would still be 300% more than the the 2% number.

I also looked for news stories describing botulism growth inside of a smoker due to low oxygen in the smoker. I found none. I then looked at CDC's statistics for all botulism outbreaks in the USA for the past fifteen years. Here is a link to all of those reports:

CDC National Botulism Surveillance

I downloaded all the reports and searched them for any word that would be associated with smoking. There appear to be no reported cases of botulism associated with the lower oxygen levels inside of any form of cooking involving smoke or combustion of any kind. I then skimmed through about half the reports and found that there are about 5-20 cases of botulism in the USA each year, about one of them fatal (on average). To put that in perspective, the chances of dying of a lightening strike (about 50 per year) is far higher.

So, this stuff, like a lightening strike, is extraordinarily deadly, but it is also (thankfully) exceedingly rare.

I then looked at the causes of foodborne botulism poisoning in the USA, as reported by the CDC, and the vast majority, as most people in this forum are aware, concern improper canning. What's more, two states account for, by a huge margin, the bulk of the botulism cases: Alaska and Utah. Most of the Alaska outbreaks concern seal meat and oil, so it seems obvious that this is probably caused by some of the native population doing food preservation using some old method that isn't very safe. As for Utah, it has a large population of people who are encouraged to put away huge stores of food, and this results in a rate of canning in that state that is a large multiple of what is found elsewhere.

So, my conclusion is that there is zero evidence that anyone has ever bred botulism in a smoker, and that the science makes a very good case for this not being something that is ever going to happen and is therefore not anything that people need to be warned about.