Multiple fine grinds vs emulsified meat…

[slavikborisov]

I’ve made a few batches of hotdogs and attempted an emulsified type sausage without a food processor or chopper… I’ve just done 3-4 fine grinds on and 1/8” plate…. Texture is great but when you bite into it there is a very dense bite like it’s almost hard to explain not tough but there’s a lot more than you’d expect which another friend of mine pointed out… not that it’s bad but I’m curious as to the theory as two why….. here is my thought process, since I’m doing multiple grind and reducing the particle size instead of essentially whipping the meat and incorporating air into the meat mixture that is the difference in mouth feel… curious to hear peoples thoughts… would eliminating phosphates or NFDM change it to a “softer” texture like you get at the store… my friend said I might of overstuffed but I don’t think so because a I had a few dogs with air pockets and the texture around was still the same…. Thoughts and explanations or remedies?

 

[johnnyb54]

Following

 

[zwiller]

I am of the opinion the softer bite comes from adding more liquid but have not tested it enough to prove it.

 

[Dustin Dorsey]

I tried that recently using Chud's recipe and I had the same problem. I noticed a ton of fat in my grinder and I expect it smeared out because I didn't chill between the first and 2nd grind. I also probably didn't have enough fat to start with. He used 2 chuck roasts and I did the same, but my chuck roasts weren't prime. I probably needed to add some fat. I think overstuffing might be at play too. I used the cellulose casings to make skinless dogs and they'll take a ton of pressure.

 

[slavikborisov]

I tried that recently using Chud's recipe and I had the same problem. I noticed a ton of fat in my grinder and I expect it smeared out because I didn't chill between the first and 2nd grind. I also probably didn't have enough fat to start with. He used 2 chuck roasts and I did the same, but my chuck roasts weren't prime. I probably needed to add some fat. I think overstuffing might be at play too. I used the cellulose casings to make skinless dogs and they'll take a ton of pressure.

I chilled between grinds and I had over 25% fat with 10% water I also didn’t have any fat out when cooking so im stumped

 

[Dave in AZ]

Water or liquid content is what I have seen make the most softness difference. 10% water is way less than commercial hot dog producers use. If there is anywhere they are pushing the max possible water addition, it is in hot dogs.

I think the emulsification from blades of course creates the most protein extraction, and gives the best water and fat binding.

I recently did a Thai green curry brat, where my goal was max addition of coconut milk to replicate the flavor of thai green curry. I was able to add 30% by weight of coconut milk, 3mm grind, but I did use food processor on 15 or 20% of meat to ensure good bind. I also used phosphate, as well as NFDM, to help bind.

The texture was very soft, almost fluffy, and it was all due to liquid as no air got incorporated in my emulsified meat really. Too soft for me really, but my kids love them. It was about the same texture as cheap hot dogs.

 

[slavikborisov]

I am of the opinion the softer bite comes from adding more liquid but have not tested it enough to prove it.

I did 10% water plus milk which was at 30ml/kg on the doctors sausage maybe not enough

 

[slavikborisov]

Water or liquid content is what I have seen make the most softness difference. 10% water is way less than commercial hot dog producers use. If there is anywhere they are pushing the max possible water addition, it is in hot dogs.

I think the emulsification from blades of course creates the most protein extraction, and gives the best water and fat binding.

I recently did a Thai green curry brat, where my goal was max addition of coconut milk to replicate the flavor of thai green curry. I was able to add 30% by weight of coconut milk, 3mm grind, but I did use food processor on 15 or 20% of meat to ensure good bind. I also used phosphate, as well as NFDM, to help bind.

The texture was very soft, almost fluffy, and it was all due to liquid as no air got incorporated in my emulsified meat really. Too soft for me really, but my kids love them. It was about the same texture as cheap hot dogs.

View attachment 653330

View attachment 653331

View attachment 653332

Okay I will have to increase my water content and give it a try

 

[chopsaw]

All pork . One time through 1/8 " plate . NFDM and water added slowly until the mixture comes together . For 2 1/2 pounds of grind , might be 1/2 cup water and 2 TBL. NFDM .
Smoked for color , poached to finish . Perfect texture and bite .

 

[zwiller]

No doubt that in general, the less the liquid the higher the quality a sausage but there are a few exceptions I think. Sausages enjoyed on the lighter side, able to be cut with a fork, like weissurst (WW). Bangers would be another. For giggles I once did a beef slider loaf with 50% water to see how far I could take it and it worked. IIRC beef on it's own hold near 40% and when STPP is used I think you can go like over 100%. That being said, I think we're talking 20-30% to get the softness. chopsaw and the others can eyeball it because they've done it so often but I need a number ti guide me. Last batch of WW with 10% was not really fork tender but still good.

 

[slavikborisov]

No doubt that in general, the less the liquid the higher the quality a sausage but there are a few exceptions I think. Sausages enjoyed on the lighter side, able to be cut with a fork, like weissurst (WW). Bangers would be another. For giggles I once did a beef slider loaf with 50% water to see how far I could take it and it worked. IIRC beef on it's own hold near 40% and when STPP is used I think you can go like over 100%. That being said, I think we're talking 20-30% to get the softness. chopsaw and the others can eyeball it because they've done it so often but I need a number ti guide me. Last batch of WW with 10% was not really fork tender but still good.

Okay great I will try it and see what happens!!

Thanks all for your input !

 

[jbo_c]

I had the same experience with my first/last attempt at dogs. Flavor was good, but texture was very firm rubber.

Everybody’s first instinct was to spit it out(including mine). I did have one friend tough through eating two of them. He said they tasted good, but he didnt want to eat them like that again.

Even if you only had a small piece, it was a very firm bite.

Don’t know how else to explain it.

Will be watching to see how your modified batch goes.

Chopsaw, those look great! Not sure why you’d go through the trouble(and potential heart-ache) to emulsify If you can make them look like that with a fine grind.

Jbo

 

[chopsaw]

Chopsaw, those look great! Not sure why you’d go through the trouble(and potential heart-ache) to emulsify If you can make them look like that with a fine grind.

Thank you bud . I always add sodium erythorbate to protect against oxidation and set the color , but it also acts as an emulsifier .
This is the same sausage as above ripped lengthwise . The pockets are were small fat cubes were .