MES tripping GFCI

[johnmeyer]

Mactress is correct on all his points. I was going to post, but didn't want to take the time. The GFI will work regardless of distance from the breaker box. You'll get a bigger voltage drop to the GFI, but that lower voltage will not matter at all because the GFI is only measuring the differential between current going in and coming back out of the load, and doesn't care about voltage. To reiterate: it is a device which measures current, not voltage, and therefore is indifferent to the incoming voltage. It has to work this way because, if you've ever put a voltmeter on the mains, you'll see the voltage from your utility company wander all over the place, based on your neighbors' usage at that moment. I've seen voltage at my house go as low as 115 and as high as 123 volts in the matter of a few seconds (I have a UPS at my main computer that has a voltage readout) and, during brownouts, have seen voltages as low as 90 volts. The GFI has to work through all of this.

And, there is zero difference between a 15A and a 20A circuit until, of course, the current limit is reached, and one will trip at a lower current than the other. If the 20A circuit is wired with larger wire, there will be a slightly smaller voltage drop at the load (your smoker) when a lot of current is being drawn, but that is the only difference and, as I just pointed out above, the voltage at the load doesn't affect the GFI operation, so wire gauge doesn't matter at all.

Since the person who recently posted is having problems with the MES tripping multiple GFI receptacles, the MES obviously does have a ground fault. I suspect that moisture has penetrated one of the boxes, or else there is some gunk or fat that has oozed into something and that gunk is causing a fault.

While it is probably not a lethal situation, I most definitely would not recommend leaving it as is, and the smoker should probably be fixed or replaced.

 

[ochawkeye]

 
While it is probably not a lethal situation, I most definitely would not recommend leaving it as is, and the smoker should probably be fixed or replaced.

That's about all I needed to hear.  Probably playing with fire doing this one last smoke on it, but I'm about 5 hours in and am pretty committed at this point.  Maybe I'll suit up in full rubber gear the rest of the day :)

Tractor Supply has $100 off today with free shipping so probably the best possible time for me to order a new one.  Hopefully I get as much out of this new one as I did the last one.

 

[renron]

Just trying to help, I guess what I was taught was wrong. Sorry. I will defer to both of you.  No one is being a jerk, I can admit to being wrong and I can learn too. :)

The Contractor I worked with always put 20A receptacles on 20A circuits in the kitchen. No spec. or tract homes only Very high end homes. Perhaps that's why.

Must be a matter of cost to use the cheaper 15A receptacles. Although code does allows 15A receptacles (duplex) on a 20A circuit. Just not a single 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit.

I searched on Mike Holts website which has a lot of valuable information.

So your saying a GFCI breaker WON"T trip due to over current protection?  Only because of an unbalanced load? (my point from above , over current protection, not from a ground fault)

If this is the case then a GFCI breaker in the panel shouldn't trip from over current? I'm obviously missing something here. Please explain.

I was also under the (mistaken) impression that a GFCI breaker had a longer MTBW than a GFCI receptacle. Or is it ~ 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other?  I watched an EC replace a GFCI receptacle which tripped often, with a GFCI breaker in the panel. Problem solved. Perhaps it was just a bad GFCI receptacle, this was an exterior outlet in snow country. Moisture?

Please, I'm just trying to understand and want to be correct. Not arguing. I love this website and don't want to be outcast.

Thanks,

Ron

 

[marctrees]

"If this is the case then a GFCI breaker in the panel shouldn't trip from over current? I'm obviously missing something here. Please explain."

GFI BREAKERS trip for 2 reasons - Overcurrent just like a regular breaker,   or ground fault.

Gfi recepts, ONLY from ground fault.

"I watched an EC replace a GFCI receptacle which tripped often, with a GFCI breaker in the panel. Problem solved. Perhaps it was just a bad GFCI receptacle, this was an exterior outlet in snow country. Moisture?

Bingo,probably moisture at outside location, and maybe bad from previous exposures.

Sorry I was so harsh.      Marc

 

[johnmeyer]

I certainly wasn't trying to be harsh. I think Mactrees' excellent second post explains some of the discrepancies between what each of us was saying. I actually did not know that there were GFI breakers. I don't know if I have any of those.

Now, if you really want to get into, I'll tell y'all sometime about how an electrician wired together all the neutrals in the junction box in my kitchen, not realizing that one of them was from a different phase (your house in the USA has two phases). After we moved back in (it was a remodel) my old CRT monitor would start waving back and forth every time the kitchen lights were turned on. I quickly lost my fax machine and answering machine. I can't remember what caused me to open that box, but I did, found that the neutral for my office and the neutral from my kitchen lights were wired together, even though they were from circuits on opposite phases. I separated the neutrals into two groups, one for each phase, and solved the problem 100%.

I explained all of this to the electrician, but he did not seem to understand the concept that the voltage in one phase is going up when the voltage in the other is going down, and that the voltage drop from the current in the wires from the big load (my 900 watt kitchen lights) will induce a voltage back into the other circuit. Even worse is what happens from the inrush when the lights are turned on (they are all LED now). I'm sure that's what fried the power supplies in my fax and answering machine (both of which I was able to fix).

Ever since this happened 23 years ago, when I hear about people who have problems with "voltage spikes," I wonder how often the problem originates from the power company, and how many of these people have an electrician who is as clueless as mine was.

 

[marctrees]

GFCI receptacles have always been cheaper than breakers, so much more often used.

And the fact that most are "feed through", meaning protecting outlets "down the line" , the "Load side",   supported their use,.

A big downside though was when they started using them years ago, when they were more expensive than now,  homes would often have one in a bathroom ALSO controlling an outdoor one, and folks would call electricians when their outdoor outlet was dead, cause they didn't know check the bath recept.

Many of us years ago been there, done that till that knowledge became more common.

Using the GFI breaker though is better in some cases, specially like if the outdoor device is in a really crappy potentially moisture place, like touched on above.  Marc

 

[renron]

MarcTrees,

Thank you for "Gfi recepts, ONLY from ground fault.".  I did not know that. I knew that GFCI breakers performed 2 functions and thought the receptacles did too.

I learned something today, it's a good day..

Ron

 

[marctrees]

Ya, only the Breakers do two functions.

I would estimate, SWAG, after working on panels in homes for years, only maybe 20% of homes have GFI BREAKERS in the panels.

Course, by now, 99% have GFI receptacles somewhere anyway, excepting the oldest or poorest homes than have not had upgrades ever yet.      Marc

 

[marctrees]

Renron - No Outcast status -  Welcome to the Forum.         Marc

 

 

[renron]

Arghhhhhhhhhhhh   That's frightening!

Are you trying to scare me away? ;)

Ron

MES 30 w/mailbox & Snorkel mod. Happy smoker, not a toker

 

[gasou93]

Yeah, I had been using my 30-inch MES for a couple of years until my wife surprised me with a Kamado Joe for our anniversary in March.  I went to use my MES to do some pig candy a few weeks ago.  Turned it on, got it up to temp.... went to open the latch to put my bacon in and "ZING"..... a mild shock when I touched the metal latch.  I then put on the insulated gloves I have and was able to get the shelves out and get the meat in.  Once that cook finished, I turned it off and haven't used it since.  

I'm guessing perhaps the ground wire in the back has come loose or burned out or something.  Haven't taken the time to check it out yet.  I'd like to keep using it for small cooks like that, but we'll see.

 

[marctrees]

gasou -

I am assuming you were not plugged into a GFI ckt.

Tell me about that yes or no please., AND if you know the outlet is in fact actually grounded.

If you were not....

Probably, not for sure, but probably your shock was "mild" only because you were not well grounded.

You probably had rubber sole shoes on, not bare feet on wet grass.

Otherwise coulda been very different outcome.

Chances of the ground wire being burned off is very very small.

It is easy to check for ground continuity with a multimeter.

You will almost for sure find it is grounded, basically 0 ohms reading.

You NEED to do the above.....  but that PROBABLY is not your problem.

Your problem is probably a ground fault., and would have tripped a GFI ckt when you touched it.

LISTEN - Two things -   Do NOT - Do NOT run your unit without GFI protection.

So report back on the above and Lets go from there...

Do NOT plug it in till it gets resolved.         Marc

 

[johnmeyer]

Unfortunately, in my recent experience, the multimeter is useless for many ground fault problems. Why? There are two reasons.

1. Many ground faults only show up when high voltage is applied. I posted about rebuilding a Presto "Fry Daddy" fryer's plug using high temperature liquid weld.

High Temp Liquid Weld

As I was waiting for it to finish curing, I read the instructions more carefully to find out when the cure would be finished and noticed for the first time that the stuff contains metal particles. I pulled out the multi-meter and measured the resistance between the two plugs, and it was several hundred k-ohms. A quick calculation showed that it would only create a few milliwatts of heat and therefore would be no problem. So, I plugged it in and was immediately treated to a spectacular 4th of July sparkler shower of sparks. What I realized is that when powered with 3 volts DC the material did not electrically break down, but with 120 volts AC (which is close to 180 volts peak), the material broke down and arced.

Just to be clear, my problem was between the hot and neutral, not hot and ground (i.e., a "ground fault"), but the electrical issue of insulator breakdown due to voltage is the same.

2. AC voltage can induce a voltage across a barrier. While this "transformer effect" should not provide any potential with respect to ground, in my experience it sometimes does.

I've had a lot of near-lethal shocks over the years, and I'm lucky to have survived. I don't recommend playing around with anything that has shocked you.

 

[marctrees]

Agreed .

I wanted gasou to check ground continuity like from prong on plug to smoker body w VOM.

That's all.

Finding Ground fault is a whole nother thing.

Not to confuse things more...... but folks need to realize a GFI outlet does NOT need to be connected to ground to function, it will do it's job the same without a ground connection to the device.

It simply measures the current going let's say...  "In, and Out", and trips if there is a difference.

If it becomes different by even a tiny amount (like a tingle going through a person) it opens the circuit.

It is simply an electronic "Balance Beam" type of scale.

BOTH sides need to have EQUAL current flow, or it trips off.

The reason you need to end up having the smoker grounded is- IF the case should become energized... if it's grounded... the breaker (NOT GFI) should trip.

Otherwise, the whole smoker body sitting on your deck is one big exposed "live wire".

Totally able to kill someone under the right conditions.

Bottom line is like John said - If you don't thoroughly understand how this all works, DON'T mess with it on your own.      Marc

 

[wfilada01]

Bad element. I've gone through 3 of them.

 

[dwaytkus]

I have a MES 30" Analog and had the same issue a couple years ago.  It ended up being a bad element.

 

[rigo8582]

For what its worth I had a 40" that started tripping the GFCI. I changed the heating element a few weeks ago and its been running like new not tripping the GFCI. I've used it 3 times or since changing the heating element and its been running great.

 

[gasou93]

Marctrees,

My apologies in the delay in replying.  THe last month or so has been crazy with work and I haven't had much spare time to tinker with the MES.

Anyway, so I need to buy a multimeter as I don't have one.  Just for grins, I plugged in the MES directly into the outlet on my back porch, which does NOT have the GFCI "reset" button on it.  Just a normal looking outlet.  I heard the beep, as if it was on, and walked inside for just a second.  Came back out and it was off.  Walked in the garage to check the breakers, nothing had tripped.  HOWEVER.... there is a GFCI outlet in the garage right outside the door.  That GFCI outlet had tripped and had to be reset (my garage stand up freezer is plugged into it!!!).  Since then, the MES does nothing.  

I'm not terribly mechanically/electrically inclined, so I may have to get some help on this one.  WHen you say test with a multimeter, once I purchase one, what exactly do I test?  Something on the MES itself or the outlet?  

Based on other comments, looks like perhaps my element has gone bad.  Hopefully that's all it is.  Although this isn't my primary smoker any longer, it's still serviceable for certain things.

 

[larryhn]

The purpose of a GFI is to keep you and your friends and family form being electrocuted -  not everyone here agrees but my suggestion is to never use any device which is tripping a GFI until it is repaired - doing so puts people's lives in danger

As to testing you want to test the resistance between the element and common and ground - it should be an open circuit - infinite resistance - sine it is tripping yoru GFI it probably has leakage or a short that is making the resistance low - often replacing the element is the solution to that

You should be able to find a friend with a multimeter to test it for you

LN

 

[gasou93]

Thanks Larry.  I certainly won't be using it until it's repaired since it won't even turn on at this point.  I'll ask a couple of friends if they have a MM and go from there.