Jerky temp and time for smoker

[sigmo]

Good information. I like the idea of the checklist/step-by-step for the basics here. That might be a good sticky.

I now wonder if much of the nitrite remains after the smoking/cooking of the jerky. And I always figured part of the intent of using the cure was to provide some degree of "shelf stability" for the finished product. But if heating over 130 breaks the cure down, then is our jerky really safe being stored for even short periods of time at room temperatures? Maybe it's the dryness and salt content that keeps it safe at that point. I usually end up the smoking/drying at 165 or higher, but maybe that's too high, destroying the cure.

I really like the jerky I've made over the years because, to me, it tastes better than store-bought, and has no sugar in it the way I make it. But I do want it to be completely safe, too, so I want to get this absolutely right.

 

[daveomak]

Good information. I like the idea of the checklist/step-by-step for the basics here. That might be a good sticky.

I now wonder if much of the nitrite remains after the smoking/cooking of the jerky. And I always figured part of the intent of using the cure was to provide some degree of "shelf stability" for the finished product. But if heating over 130 breaks the cure down, then is our jerky really safe being stored for even short periods of time at room temperatures? Maybe it's the dryness and salt content that keeps it safe at that point. I usually end up the smoking/drying at 165 or higher, but maybe that's too high, destroying the cure.

I really like the jerky I've made over the years because, to me, it tastes better than store-bought, and has no sugar in it the way I make it. But I do want it to be completely safe, too, so I want to get this absolutely right.

Sigmo, morning....    I believe you are mixing two methods of making jerky.....    

First is making jerky in a dehydrator and not using cure....  That is the normal method...   Then cooking to 165 or placing in the oven at 275 are the steps to insure a safe product....    

Second is smoking jerky at home, cure is used due to the low oxygen environment is a smoker......  Normally one would only cook the meat to 145 or 165....   165 being the temp for poultry or wild game....  

The USDA makes a note about the degradation of nitrite in commercially produced products to about +/- 20%...   And the remaining nitrite is satisfactory to protect the product during shelf life storage, or something like that....

Jerky, in a dehydrator, does not require nitrite as it is not a low oxygen environment and it should be "sterilized" to 165 ish...   or in an oven at 275 to insure the death of all pathogens....    Although, nitrite does provide a pink color to the meat and in some instances, makes a nice change to the flavor profile....

I hope I got this all correct as there are sooooooo many exceptions to the rules, even my brain mixes stuff up...

 

[Libertree]

Nitrite starts to break down at ~130 ish deg. F....

First post... I've been reading everything and I'm really excited to get smoking! I'm in the middle of my first attempt at jerky. I've got it in two different marinades, in vacuum packs, in the fridge for 24 hours. I used cure in both marinades.

Here are my questions...
1.) Since I'm already packaged, can I just sous vide the packs to pasteurization temp?
2.) Since I've been marinating already for 24 hours, does it matter if the cure degrades at this point, since its already done its job? This one concerned me a bit since Daveomak called out degradation specifically. I don't want anyone getting sick!
3.) Do I need to go to 160℉? Could I use the pasteurization time/temp guide that you would use for sous vide beef? 2 hour at 135.5℉ for a 25mm package?
4.) If I've got cure in there for botulism, and sous vide for pasteurization, do I still need to do the after step of heating in the oven to 275℉?

My son LOVES jerky, so I've decided I need to make it homemade for him but he's a finicky little bugger so I want it to be as close to "real" jerky as possible. I want to avoid a cooked vibe.

Thank you all for the awesome, informative posts.

 

[daveomak]

The pasteurization table is fine for your jerky... Killing pathogens is killing pathogens.. As far as which pasteurization to use, I chose a table that recommends a 7D reduction in salmonella... usually poultry or ground meats, are cook for a longer period of time.... Some table are 5D reduction etc... If bacteria are killed at 135F in 60 minutes to a 5D reduction, then I cook for 2 hours at 135F.... Why not ?? .. Thermometers must be accurate... The longer time insures any pockets of lower temps, in the package, will get to proper temperature... The meat doesn't get over cooked... Seems like a good choice to me to insure a safe product....
Then the drying stage can begin... Is that what you are thinking ???

It doesn't say.... BUT.... I think the time/temp listed below is where the pathogen of interest STARTS to die..

 

[Libertree]

Thanks for the quick response, Daveomak! I appreciate it.

I'm completely new to smoking but I do sous vide. I typically use the Sous Vide guide from Douglas Baldwin. http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Table_5.1 but it would seem that the data in your chart is more recent. I'll save that one to use later. Thanks!

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. If I can sous vide the already cured meat, go a little overkill with time, I'd end up killing the buggies but NOT cooking the steak (in the sense of traditional cooking) and I save myself the step of dunking the beef in 160 degree marinade since I can just plop the marinating bag in the water bath. I also think that this saves me from having to do the 10 minutes in the hot over AFTER it's dried. Would that assumption be correct? I've read sooooo much in the last few days that my head is spinning a little.

Then, it's on to drying. I'm thinking I no longer have to worry about the low oxygen environment in the smoker because the meat is cured. I also don't have to worry about getting to a specific internal temp, since the sous vide did that for me? Or do I, since I need to remove the meat from the bath, place it on a rack to dry a bit, and THEN put it in the smoker. Normally when something comes out of the bath, we eat it, but this would cool to room temp to form a pellicle before hitting the smoker.

I apologize for all the questions. I'm probably overthinking this but I really need to understand in order to feel safe for my kiddos to hoover this down and I also want to make the best product I can. So these are the steps I propose:

1.) slice, marinate, cure in fridge for at least 24 hours
2.) drop bag into water bath to pasteurize
3.) remove beef, place on rack, dry to avoid too much surface moisture causing "acid rain"
4.) smoke as low as I can go (pellet smoker) 150 for 5+ hours until jerky texture is reached

Again, thanks for the help!

 

[sigmo]

This is all good info. I like the idea of using a sous-vide water bath for the pasteurization because the temperature can be controlled so precisely, and using a longer time and at a lower temperature might make for a less "cooked" jerky product.

Also, since I use an electric smoker, and even provide forced air-flow during the drying phase, the method I end up using is kind of a hybrid falling between the dehydrator and smoker methods even though it's all done in a smoker. I can see where a smoker that is heated directly by burning fuel such as charcoal, wood, or even gas would end up being a low-oxygen environment, though.

The only oxygen consumption in my system will be from the smoke pellets smoldering in an AMNPS. It would be interesting to know what the free oxygen levels really are during the smoking phase in such a system, but in any case, it's certainly better to be safe than sorry with any of this.

It's about time that I make another batch of jerky. All of this discussion is making me hungry.

Thanks again, everyone, especially Dave, for the helpful information and great discussion of it all!

 

[daveomak]

Remember, when packaging in a vac-pack system... That is a low oxygen environment... Even if sealed in a package with oxygen, oxygen loving bacteria can consume the available oxygen and now your package becomes a low oxygen environment...
The use of nitrite in packaged meats "almost" becomes a necessity for food safety... "Food for thought"...

 

[sigmo]

Yep. When you use sous-vide, you are always creating a low O2 environment.

In the past, I've always mixed the cure in with the brine and then vacuum-packed that cure/brine/meat mixture and refrigerated that for the marinating period. I figured that marinated the meat and also got the cure into the meat properly. And the cure and refrigerator temperatures during the marinade period would suppress the anaerobes during the actual marination phase.

But if I'm now going to add a pasteurization step to the already-marinaded cure/brine/meat (presumably still sealed in the bag, fresh out of the fridge), the question of the pasteurization phase breaking down too much of the cure arises.

If I pasteurize at 135°F (internal temperature of the bag-o-meat) for at least two hours, I wonder if I would have enough nitrite/nitrate left to keep the jerky safe during the drying and smoking and on into the storage and use of the product. In the past, I would have assumed so. But if the nitrate/nitrite breaks down too much, that may not be true, especially for people using wood/charcoal/gas-fired smokers.

We have two possible places (at least) to get a low-oxygen environment: The marination/pasteurization container, and the smoker itself.

I'd like to avoid adding a second dose of nitrate/nitrite cure after cooling the product down post pasteurization. Without being able to test the concentration of cure remaining, doing a second dose accurately would be difficult, anyhow.

But maybe that's overkill, and plenty of cure will remain after the pasteurization step, so we could theoretically just take the cured/marinated/pasteurized meat out of the bag immediately after the pasteurization and start the drying/smoking.

I designed the gadgetry and wrote the software for an automated nitrite/nitrate/cyanide/etc., test system that we used at a number of environmental laboratories for a long time 15 years ago or so. And you can get inexpensive nitrate and nitrite test kits for aquarium water testing. But I'd have to look into the ranges these tests cover to see if they'd be of any use doing some experimentation on the brine/cure solutions before and after pasteurization.

So there might be a way to experimentally verify how much nitrate/nitrite we lose during different time and temperature pasteurization regimes. But I'm not sure it's worth the effort. And I'm not sure if the heavy salt, sugar, etc., concentrations we'd see in brine solutions would create huge interferences with the different nitrate/nitrite testing systems.

Normally, people are testing drinking water samples or at worst, river or stream water, which don't contain high concentrations of metal salts, sugar, etc. You could run heat tests on pure water spiked with the nitrate and nitrite cures, but I'm not sure that would adequately simulate the reactions that might happen in a real marinade!

As we might say in the laboratory, the marinade may be a difficult "sample matrix" to deal with here! ;)

 

[daveomak]

You are overthinking this.... After nitrite additions and appropriate curing/rest time..... everything is cooked.... whether it be in the dehydrator, sous-vide, commercial smokehouse, backyard smokehouse... It just doesn't matter...
Commercially processed foods that say, "Cook before eating" are usually cooked to 138 F in the facility... That's where the 10-20% nitrite is remaining comes from... Testing commercial products....

 

[Libertree]

If I pasteurize at 135°F (internal temperature of the bag-o-meat) for at least two hours, I wonder if I would have enough nitrite/nitrate left to keep the jerky safe during the drying and smoking and on into the storage and use of the product. In the past, I would have assumed so. But if the nitrate/nitrite breaks down too much, that may not be true, especially for people using wood/charcoal/gas-fired smokers.

I wanted to understand this as well. I know that curing suppresses the growth of botulism bacteria but I wasn't sure it actually KILLED the bacteria. I tried to find the information but I was just looking in the wrong places. I did eventually find an article (there was no sourcing in the article and it wasn't from an especially scientific blog but interesting nonetheless). It was from a spice blog called "Spiceography" that stated:

Health benefits of curing salt
While curing salt does not provide a wide variety of nutrients, it does have a couple of health benefits. They are:

• It prevents botulism: Both types of curing salt do more than merely keep meat from spoiling. They are able to prevent the growth of the Clostridium botulism bacteria. It does this by drawing water out of the meat via osmosis. It also draws water out of the bacteria cells, which kills them.
• It contains sodium: Sodium does more than just flavor your food. It is a mineral that your body needs for the absorption and transportation of minerals along with the transmission of nerve signals. It is also important for maintaining a healthy blood pressure.
• Curing salt helps to prevent food-borne illness: Most importantly, it prevents botulism. Botulism is a condition caused by the Clostridium botulism bacteria mentioned above. Botulism symptoms include trouble swallowing and speaking along with vomiting and abdominal cramping.

What I found interesting here was the point that it draws water out of the meat AND out of the bacteria cells, killing them. If that's true, then there isn't much left (if anything left) to proliferate in the danger temp zone? In which case, I'd think we could safely cure the jerky at any temp we want? Although pasteurization doesn't kill all the other baddies TOTALLY so does curing kill ALL the botulism? And in what time? And obviously people have been eating jerky for FOREVER so at some point we're dealing with MINIMAL risk. However, I'd like that risk to be as minimal as possible.

And you can get inexpensive nitrate and nitrite test kits for aquarium water testing. But I'd have to look into the ranges these tests cover to see if they'd be of any use doing some experimentation on the brine/cure solutions before and after pasteurization.

I LOVE science experiments... fun. fun. fun.

So there might be a way to experimentally verify how much nitrate/nitrite we lose during different time and temperature pasteurization regimes. But I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

Probably not worth it but possibly a fun experiment. As Davomak says, we're probably overthinking this one but I'm glad I'm not the only over thinker.

 

[Libertree]

You are overthinking this....

Ya think? Hahaha. I'm sorry. Thanks for being patient. ;)

 

[sigmo]

You are overthinking this.... After nitrite additions and appropriate curing/rest time..... everything is cooked.... whether it be in the dehydrator, sous-vide, commercial smokehouse, backyard smokehouse... It just doesn't matter...
Commercially processed foods that say, "Cook before eating" are usually cooked to 138 F in the facility... That's where the 10-20% nitrite is remaining comes from... Testing commercial products....

Excellent. I'll just do what I've always done, soaking the meat in a marinade (that also includes the appropriate amount of cure) in the fridge. But then I'll sous-vide it in that same bag for two hours at 135°F, and then I'll hang it in the smoker and get after it. That's easy!

I wanted to understand this as well. I know that curing suppresses the growth of botulism bacteria but I wasn't sure it actually KILLED the bacteria. I tried to find the information but I was just looking in the wrong places. I did eventually find an article (there was no sourcing in the article and it wasn't from an especially scientific blog but interesting nonetheless). It was from a spice blog called "Spiceography" that stated:

Health benefits of curing salt
While curing salt does not provide a wide variety of nutrients, it does have a couple of health benefits. They are:

• It prevents botulism: Both types of curing salt do more than merely keep meat from spoiling. They are able to prevent the growth of the Clostridium botulism bacteria. It does this by drawing water out of the meat via osmosis. It also draws water out of the bacteria cells, which kills them.
• It contains sodium: Sodium does more than just flavor your food. It is a mineral that your body needs for the absorption and transportation of minerals along with the transmission of nerve signals. It is also important for maintaining a healthy blood pressure.
• Curing salt helps to prevent food-borne illness: Most importantly, it prevents botulism. Botulism is a condition caused by the Clostridium botulism bacteria mentioned above. Botulism symptoms include trouble swallowing and speaking along with vomiting and abdominal cramping.

What I found interesting here was the point that it draws water out of the meat AND out of the bacteria cells, killing them. If that's true, then there isn't much left (if anything left) to proliferate in the danger temp zone? In which case, I'd think we could safely cure the jerky at any temp we want? Although pasteurization doesn't kill all the other baddies TOTALLY so does curing kill ALL the botulism? And in what time? And obviously people have been eating jerky for FOREVER so at some point we're dealing with MINIMAL risk. However, I'd like that risk to be as minimal as possible.



I LOVE science experiments... fun. fun. fun.



Probably not worth it but possibly a fun experiment. As Davomak says, we're probably overthinking this one but I'm glad I'm not the only over thinker.

In the quoted text, they talk about "curing salt". But I'm not sure if they mean plain salt, or using salt with nitrate or nitrite in it. I do think of "curing salt" as having nitrate or nitrite in it, but the thing is: Using salt alone provides the protection of making moisture unavailable to the bad organisms. The nitrate or nitrite (if present) provides an additional and separate means of suppressing bacterial growth.

This is interesting:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-salt-and-sugar-pre/

And this is good, too:

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/shared/PDF/FSRE_SS_7Principles.pdf?redirecthttp=true

One thing to always be aware of if you use a nitrate or nitrite test kit designed for aquarium use (or really, any of them) is that they may not use the same "reporting units" as most environmental laboratories (and that the EPA) use when stating MCLs (maximum contaminant limits) for, say, drinking water.

The problem is that most labs report (and the EPA uses for its MCLs) "nitrate as N" or "nitrite as N". Which means they only consider the atomic weight of the nitrogen atoms in the nitrate or nitrite molecules. Since these molecules have molecular weights that are, of course, much higher than the masses of only their nitrogen atoms, this creates a difference because:

The nitrate molecule (more correctly: ion) is NO3- which is one nitrogen atom and 3 oxygen atoms.

The nitrogen atom has an atomic mass of 14.007
Each Oxygen atom has an atomic mass of 15.999

So this gives our nitrate ion an ionic mass of 14.007+( 3 x 15.999) = 62.004

So when we report concentrations based on only the mass of the nitrogen atom, we get a result that is approximately 4.43 times lower than if we report concentration based on the entire mass of the nitrate ion.

Some (most?) of the aquarium test kits I've seen report nitrate and nitrite concentrations based on the entire molecular weights of the nitrate or nitrite molecules.

So when they report their results in "parts per million" or "milligrams per liter", they're basing the concentrations on the (higher) mass of the entire nitrate ion. And that often scares the hobbyist using the fish-tank tester because they see concentrations in, for example, their tap water, which appear to be over the EPA MCL for nitrate or nitrite.

As an example, consider the two different reporting methods for nitrate, and EPA's MCL for nitrate in drinking water.

EPA specifies (and most environmental labs report) the concentration "as N", meaning just the atomic mass of the nitrogen atoms.

And the EPA MCL is 10ppm.

But a typical aquarium nitrate test might report that same 10ppm as 44.3ppm because it reports the concentration based on the entire mass of the nitrate ion.

nitrate = "nitrate as N" x 4.43
"nitrate as N" = nitrate x 0.226

So people using some aquarium test kits test their tap water and find a level above 10ppm and think their tap water is over the EPA limit when it may be well below the limit.

So you have to convert the results into the reporting units that you are really interested in seeing. Now I'm curious as to what reporting units or reporting method is used when specifying nitrite and nitrate concentrations for food. My guess is that like the methods used for drinking water by EPA and most labs, they are reporting "nitrate as N" or "nitrite as N', as well. But without seeing this specifically documented, who knows?

So that's just one thing to keep in mind when overthinking all of this! ;)

 

[daveomak]

From what I have read, the "analysts" don't care about the atomic weight of N and O when computing the effectiveness of cure#1 or cure#2...
They add X# of bacteria into a host "solution" and then add X grams of cure... at a given time and temperature they count the live bacteria... When the acceptable reduction of live bacteria has been reached for a 5D or 6D or 12D reduction, they write up their results... The tests are duplicated by other labs to verify the results... Then they drink coffee for 6 or 12 months and contemplate how to write up the CFR so it's halfassed confusing, pat themselves on the back, turn in their expense reports and hope all is accepted...

 

[bill ace 350]

New to the forum. I got my first smoker last week and now I'm going to try my first smoke. I went with a Green Mountain Daniel Boone electric pellet smoker. I got me some HI_mountain cure/seasoning for the first time. My plan is to slice the beef 1/4 thick and marinate for 24-28 hours, than smoke at 180 for 4-5 hours or till done which I'm not sure when that is. Questions are is the time and temp going to work? What should I look for to know its done, internal temp? texture? Smoker will go as low as 150 degrees. Thanks for any tips and info.

Hope it worked out for you!

You can get tons of great advice from some people here.

If you start thinking about bacon, ham and chicken, check out "Pop's Brine".

Having said that, there are many knowledgeable individuals here, so don't be "bullied" into a decision based on only 1 "expert's" opinion.

Safe food preparation/handling techniques, U.S. Government guidelines, commercially prepared cures and recipes are your "friends".

Don't be afraid to try your own recipes once you're comfortable.

Best of luck.

 

[pugsbrew]

OK, I'm a little confused here. Why are we discussing using/combining both pasteurization and curing? I think the procedure is:

1. If you'll be using a dehydrator, pasteurize before drying. This is not an oxygen deprived technique.

2. If using a smoker, oxygen deprived system/technique, you need to cure meat first. There should be no need to pasteurize.

Why exactly are we talking doing both for a recipe? What am I missing here?

Just trying to wrap my head around this.

Thanks

 

[Rippy]

Wow I maybe more confused now about making jerky in my mbes30 than ever

 

[daveomak]

Wow I maybe more confused now about making jerky in my mbes30 than ever

Read this......
https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...at-preparation/jerky-and-food-safety/ct_index

 

[WildmanWilson]

Well I made a post about drying temps compared to summer sausage or snack sticks. These are cooked using curing salt but they are not pre heated to kill bacteria. They are cooked very low to set the fat then slowly bumped up over a period of hours to an internal temperature of about 155. It’s all completely safe to eat. I don’t see why a different technique is suggested when the only difference in the jerky is dried to a lower moisture content.

The sausage and snack sticks are even put in smokers most times in a low oxygen environment. All without bringing to a temp of 160 first.

 

[daveomak]

Well I made a post about drying temps compared to summer sausage or snack sticks. These are cooked using curing salt but they are not pre heated to kill bacteria. They are cooked very low to set the fat then slowly bumped up over a period of hours to an internal temperature of about 155. It’s all completely safe to eat. I don’t see why a different technique is suggested when the only difference in the jerky is dried to a lower moisture content.
The sausage and snack sticks are even put in smokers most times in a low oxygen environment. All without bringing to a temp of 160 first.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WW, morning.... How about you follow the USDA's guidelines and continue to read up on it.. I've posted several papers on the reasoning behind the USDA's findings and recommendations.. You don't really have to understand the scientific data as long as you follow it...

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...at-preparation/jerky-and-food-safety/ct_index

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/160-temp-question.282887/

..