Is there a substitute for corn syrup solids

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nickelmore

Smoking Fanatic
Original poster
Feb 5, 2009
546
10
Lockport IL
In search for a good venison salami I noticed the one in Ryteks book calls for corn syrup solids. I was wondering if perhaps there was something else that I could use as a substitute.

If anyone can post or pm me a recipe of something tried and true I would be most appreciative. I enjoy making fresh sausage and want to try my hand at some snack sticks and some 2 1/2 smoked salami.

I know that sausage making is about experimenting, i don't want to waste the meat that I have allocated.

Thanks
 
here is what I found for ya. I think you can use sugar to sub for sweetness and dry powder milk for a binder.
Corn Syrup Solids: The general use for corn syrup solids in sausage recipes is to enhance binding qualities of the meat, provide sweetening and assists in holding the color of the cured meat. In dry-cured product, it aids the fermentation process by providing a carbohydrate source for lactic bacteria. Generally use 2% or less of the weight of the meat block.

Here it is in the sugars section also. I am sure ryteks book talks about substitutes but I do not have it with me.
Sugars: A number of different sugars can added to meat products like sucrose, dextrose, lactose, corn syrup solids, maple syrup, honey etc. Often they are added for flavoring and also has some preservative action. Sugars, called reducing sugars, improve the shelf life of the product. Dextrose (glucose) is and essential in fermented sausages as a substrate for growth of fermenting bacteria.
 
I checked my copy of Rytek's book, and he talks about the solids, but I did not see anything about a substitute. The closest thing to it that I can see is powdered milk. These items are both added to aid in binding the sausage, but I can not find any direct comment to substituting in the book. If you're having trouble finding it, you can go to this link to get the real stuff, and I can attest to the customer service at this site. Shipping was prompt, and no problems.

http://www.sausagemaker.com/curesandcultures.aspx

Good luck with the sausage
PDT_Armataz_01_34.gif
 
I will see if one of my local butchers will sell me some. Ryteks book calls for 2 cups soy protein, 6Tb corn syrup solids and 2 TB of powdered dextrose.

Page 303 of my book, but I think i have an older version. I have everything except the solids. I wanted to mix up this weeks so I can smoke it on Saturday morning. I am planing on only making 2 or 3 sticks and some snack sticks.

As I recall I have stumbled upon some recipes that have called for Molasses or honey in the past.

Thanks again.
 
I have a can of the corn syrup solids and they really don't taste much like anything. Only a hint of "sweet". Larger sized granules than Kosher salt but smaller than rock salt.

I really don't know what they do other than food for bugs in a fermented sausage to generate lactose which is an acid and I presume a preservative (I'm guessing it's similar to a sourdough bread). Since these are not fermented, I don't know what the benefit would be. His Cervelat that I made last week didn't use them and I couldn't tell the difference from the venison SS.

If this is a test, would you dare to use a tablespoon or two of Karo corn syrup instead?
 
The guy I buy some of my sausage supplies from will be in later this afternoon, I will stop by and ask.

He is a really decent guy and always willing to help with good advice. I will post what he says.
 
Corn syrup an corn syrup solids differ only in there moisture content, so ya could sub the corn syrup. Ya might have ta cut back on the amount a water in yer recipe a bit is all.
 
BTW, I forgot to mention if you are making Rytek's Venison SS (page 296 I think), note there may be some instructions left out. If you compare that to the other SS options, the others have you grind and mix up the ground venison, 3/4" ground pork fat and spices and put them in a fermentation tub for 24 to 48 hours, then fine grind again prior to stuffing. The venison version omits these last steps. Don't know if that was intentional or an editing mistake, but I'd let it rest and regrind if I was doing it.
 
Glucose is your best bet to cut down on all the nasty stuff in CSS. You need to experiment with quantity, and insure you mix your liquid ingredients to a smooth liquid so the glucose does not lump. I think you'll find Glucose will add a softer sweetness, and allow you to use much less content of sugar. But it must be soluble to add to your mix.
 
It figures my butcher does not make SS, he just got out "the book and read me what I already knew.

Hog Warden thanks for the heads up on the letting it sit for a day or so.

I think I will use Corn syrup, honey or Molasas, as a substitute.

I am still searching for a good receipe, I find that some of the ones in the book are a little bland and need kicked up a little for my taste.
 
It is amazing,how much information is available here. I have been buying the sausage maker summer sausage mixes for years, my book by Rytek, is a revised edition. On page 285, has the smoked venison summer sausage recipe. I normally use the premixed seasonings from sausage maker.com. I am short on seasomoning, I cleaned out my cabinet and disposed of the corn syrup solid and the container of fermento which were rock rock hard. No I need both that's what got me back to this forum. I will have to hold up on my next batch of summer sausage until my order comes in. The premixed seasonings are the way to go.
 
You can use Coffeemate Powdered Creamer as a substitute for corn syrup solids. It's mostly corn syrup solids, some vegetable oil and some Sodium caseinate (a milk derivative).
 
nickelmore nickelmore

Rytek uses corn syrup solids as his "go-to" binder. You absolutely do NOT need to use them, at all. When Rytek wrote his book, alternative products weren't common or available, and no Internet or Amazon, so he listed what could be found.

Rytek usually adds a separate sweetener when desired. His version of CSS, of hundreds of available formulations, was not a sweet product.

Others have said that CSS, corn syrup solids, are the same as corn syrup or sugar, this is not actually true. In fact, CSS covers a very broad range of carbohydrates of widely varying Carbon chain length and sweetness, with only the commonality that they are derived from cheap corn syrup usually. In the USA, we have a labeled chemical group called Maltodextrins, but in EU these must ALL be called Corn Syrup Solids. Most high carbon chain Maltodextrin has little or no sweetness.

As R rawcalls says, coffeemate creamer is a similar product.

I would remove all CSS from Rytek recipes, and instead use other cheaper binders. I would start with NDFM, nonfat dry milk, at 1%. High temperature produced/dried NDFM Has better binding properties, but is expensive and regular grocery NDFM works just fine.

Other binders that are now common and work well are gelatin, soy protein, and virtually any starch: corn starch, potato starch, tapioca starch.

Sodium phosphates ( another chemical group name, not a real single item) have great binding for both water and fat, what we term a "soap" in chemistry, and are used by virtually every commercial large producer. Aka cold phosphate.

My #1 favorite binder Is SureGel by Waltons, which is 33% gelatin, 33% sodium phosphates, and 34% milk solids i.e. NFDM.

In Texas BBQ sausage, or also Texas Hot Guts and Hot Links, the usual binder for these high temperature cooked beef sausages (220-240f) is a cereal mix called "Bull flour", needed to prevent fat out of the beef at these elevated temps. This is just 1/5 each wheat, rice, corn, oat, and rye flour. It works EXTREMELY well and lends no detectable flavor really, Kreuz and Smitties and Blacks all swear by it.

I have read Rytek Kutas' book through several times, and do refer to it as a recipe source... but I NEVER use his recipes as-is. His ingredients and sources were good when written, but are outdated and not optimal now. Particularly his use of Fermento as a chemical acidification method combined with wild ferments, as meat bacterial cultures were not available. His ingredients and spices make great references for target flavors, and I commend his great groundbreaking work and effort that so much of home sausage making is based on. But in almost all cases, Marianski has superior technical knowledge as well as recipes.
 
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nickelmore nickelmore

Rytek uses corn syrup solids as his "go-to" binder. You absolutely do NOT need to use them, at all. When Rytek wrote his book, alternative products weren't common or available, and no Internet or Amazon, so he listed what could be found.

Rytek usually adds a separate sweetener when desired. His version of CSS, of hundreds of available formulations, was not a sweet product.

Others have said that CSS, corn syrup solids, are the same as corn syrup or sugar, this is not actually true. In fact, CSS covers a very broad range of carbohydrates of widely varying Carbon chain length and sweetness, with only the commonality that they are derived from cheap corn syrup usually. In the USA, we have a labeled chemical group called Maltodextrins, but in EU these must ALL be called Corn Syrup Solids. Most high carbon chain Maltodextrin has little or no sweetness.

As R rawcalls says, coffeemate creamer is a similar product.

I would remove all CSS from Rytek recipes, and instead use other cheaper binders. I would start with NDFM, nonfat dry milk, at 1%. High temperature produced/dried NDFM Has better binding properties, but is expensive and regular grocery NDFM works just fine.

Other binders that are now common and work well are gelatin, soy protein, and virtually any starch: corn starch, potato starch, tapioca starch.

Sodium phosphates ( another chemical group name, not a real single item) have great binding for both water and fat, what we term a "soap" in chemistry, and are used by virtually every commercial large producer. Aka cold phosphate.

My #1 favorite binder Is SureGel by Waltons, which is 33% gelatin, 33% sodium phosphates, and 34% milk solids i.e. NFDM.

In Texas BBQ sausage, or also Texas Hot Guts and Hot Links, the usual binder for these high temperature cooked beef sausages (220-240f) is a cereal mix called "Bull flour", needed to prevent fat out of the beef at these elevated temps. This is just 1/5 each wheat, rice, corn, oat, and rye flour. It works EXTREMELY well and lends no detectable flavor really, Kreuz and Smitties and Blacks all swear by it.

I have read Rytek Kutas' book through several times, and do refer to it as a recipe source... but I NEVER use his recipes as-is. His ingredients and sources were good when written, but are outdated and not optimal now. Particularly his use of Fermento as a chemical acidification method combined with wild ferments, as meat bacterial cultures were not available. His ingredients and spices make great references for target flavors, and I commend his great groundbreaking work and effort that so much of home sausage making is based on. But in almost all cases, Marianski has superior technical knowledge as well as recipes.
nickelmore nickelmore . Really appreciate your reply and understandable explanation.

I might soften your critique of Rytek a bit by suggesting that his use of Fermento is helpful and encouraging for those who do not (cannot?) ferment at controlled temps and humidity.

Question to you: what is your take on Fermento?
 
nickelmore nickelmore . Really appreciate your reply and understandable explanation.

I might soften your critique of Rytek a bit by suggesting that his use of Fermento is helpful and encouraging for those who do not (cannot?) ferment at controlled temps and humidity.

Question to you: what is your take on Fermento?
Thanks ;)
I will give you the short answer, "for those who cannot ferment at controlled temps and humidity": use a meat culture, and ferment at what you can. Fermento isn't a culture. Now the details to explain why!

Fermento. While I actually do bacteria cultures and ferments, I am ALSO a fan of chemical acidification. The problem with chemical acidification is that any fast and large pH changes, such as 0.1 pH drop over a 10 min period or less, create protein changes that are not desireable. Basically the meat gets crumbly and mushy, and is always rejected by taste testers. I have read numerous meat science studies on direct chemical acidification, of which 5 or 6 were good info. Commercial producers would love to just dump in acid instead of dealing with fermenting... but they can't. To get enough pH drop to protect meat, or give expected acid flavors, requires numerous expensive and time consuming small acid injections, to let protein chains gradually react, remain intact, and not become crumbly and mushy. In all the studies I read, the final analysis has been that just dumping in bacteria cultures once and fermenting for 12-18 hours was almost always cheaper.

So, direct chemical acidification. One most common method today, is to add Lactic acid ( end result of fermenting) or Citric acid (common, cheaper and more tart replacement) that has been ENCAPSULATED with a palm oil coating. This is supposed to protect meat from the acid until after 135f or so, when the palm oil encapsulation melts, and the meat proteins have ALREADY been "cooked" and denatured, so the acid no longer makes the meat crumbly or mushy.

The other common method is to add GDL, which apparently slowly converts to acid under heat or time and acidifies the meat slowly enough to not break up the protein chains.

Fermento was an old method to artificially acidify stuff. IT WASN'T ENOUGH ACID TO JUST BE DONE! It was used to bump pH down a little, thus providing a tiny bit more protection to fermenting meat that then underwent a wild ferment! Most meat pathogens do worse in low pH than Lactic Acid Bacteria, so slightly lowering the pH gave you a chance for decent bacteria to get going instead of listeria etc. But read the Kutas recipes, you have to be clear that Fermento wasn't just added and then BAM, smoke it! No, the meat is always then just left out at room temperatures WELL EXCEEDING the FDA pathogen growth "Come Up Time" or CUT limit, of 6 hrs between 40-130F. This is because all his recipes rely on a WILD FERMENT happening during these rest times! So you can't just talk about Fermento as an ingredient replacing ECA in your summer sausage, you must always talk about "FERMENTO PLUS A WILD FERMENT"!

Lets take a look at the first 4 recipes Kutas has in his book that use Fermento, and I'm just stopping there because I don't want to go on forever:
1. Pg 343, summer sauusage. 9 hrs rest or smoke below 120F, then probably 2-3 more at 165 until IT exceeds 130. So likely 12-15 hrs in the ferment zone! And 3.75% fermento, that's a LOT of dried yogurt to dump in a sausage!
2. Slim jims, pg 345, 20 hrs hanging at 98-110F fermentation temps! 3.75% fermento.
3. Lebanon bologna pg 346, 50 hrs hanging at 90-110f or below! 3.75% fermento.
4. Thuringer, pg 347, 3.75% fermento. 35 hours between 65f and 110f!
Etc. and on and on for every recipe, they ALL ARE WILD FERMENTED!

FERMENTO was originally just cultured whey and skim milk, heat treated to no longer be biologically active... so dried out tangy yogurt! I constantly see people say it is an active culture, IT IS NOT. Current "Fermento" can contain other stuff such as dextrose, glucose solids, sodium erythorbate and ascorbic acid accelerators. The difference in adding Fermento vs pure citric/lactic acid, is the acid is weaker and mixed with the milk solids, where the bonds keep it from just immediately migrating to the meat proteins and breaking them apart. So it is KIND OF SAFE for texture changes. Maybe. If you don't use too much, or mix it too hard with meat or with too much water to free up the chemicals etc. But still not as good as current favorites Encapsulated Citric or Lactic Acid, or GDL.

Remember, all acid is just free hydrogen ions zipping around without an electron, massively reactive and just looking to grab onto anything, breaking molecules up to grab an electron. So slightly acidic dried yogurt is nowhere near as reactive as a real acid like citric, where the ions are just waiting for water to free them.
The H in Fermento is already grabbing milk proteins, so the meat proteins aren't a significantly more attractive target for the H, which is why you can get a bit of pH drop using it, without hacking up the meat texture.

Why is Fermento use all over then? Put yourself in 1985! It was dried yogurt, and was available! There was no Amazon, no online market, no internet to research all this stuff, no books on it, no ability to find a chemical company like BalChem who makes this stuff, no way to know their phone# or even nname.There was no Chr. Hansen Bactoferm meat cultures. Unless you were the Meat Science PhD for Hormel, you never heard of any of this, nor GDL etc! I've beem trying to source ELA from BalChem for a year now, I have all their internet product booklets and MSDS and safety sheets, online email and phone contacts, and have been in touch with company reps 20 times going through their various melt points and coating formulations, and my Dad was President of the 3rd largest flavors and frangrances company in the world and has helped... I still don't have any ELA despite this! Now time travel back to 1985 and try to put together some sausage ingredients as a poor dude writing his first home sausage book...

So, I don't hate Fermento, but I do strongly dislike Wild Ferments, which is what using Fermento really means! There is just no reason to subject your expensive meat and 3 months of effort on a wild ferment anymore. If it is all you can find, then fine... but if you're using it because it is a listed ingredient in Kutas' book, then I'm gonna say there are 4 easier, cheaper, better products out there: ECA, "smooth acid" ECA/ELA blend, GDL, and meat cultures.

Hope that is informative and helpful. I DO love Kutas' book, I bought 2 copies and always reference the recipes for spicing. He did a great job bringing sausage making to us all. Disliking wild ferments and fermento is NOT equal to disrespecting Kutas ;)
 
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Thanks ;)
I will give you the short answer, "for those who cannot ferment at controlled temps and humidity": use a meat culture, and ferment at what you can. Fermento isn't a culture. Now the details to explain why!

Fermento. While I actually do bacteria cultures and ferments, I am ALSO a fan of chemical acidification. The problem with chemical acidification is that any fast and large pH changes, such as 0.1 pH drop over a 10 min period or less, create protein changes that are not desireable. Basically the meat gets crumbly and mushy, and is always rejected by taste testers. I have read numerous meat science studies on direct chemical acidification, of which 5 or 6 were good info. Commercial producers would love to just dump in acid instead of dealing with fermenting... but they can't. To get enough pH drop to protect meat, or give expected acid flavors, requires numerous expensive and time consuming small acid injections, to let protein chains gradually react, remain intact, and not become crumbly and mushy. In all the studies I read, the final analysis has been that just dumping in bacteria cultures once and fermenting for 12-18 hours was almost always cheaper.

So, direct chemical acidification. One most common method today, is to add Lactic acid ( end result of fermenting) or Citric acid (common, cheaper and more tart replacement) that has been ENCAPSULATED with a palm oil coating. This is supposed to protect meat from the acid until after 135f or so, when the palm oil encapsulation melts, and the meat proteins have ALREADY been "cooked" and denatured, so the acid no longer makes the meat crumbly or mushy.

The other common method is to add GDL, which apparently slowly converts to acid under heat or time and acidifies the meat slowly enough to not break up the protein chains.

Fermento was an old method to artificially acidify stuff. IT WASN'T ENOUGH ACID TO JUST BE DONE! It was used to bump pH down a little, thus providing a tiny bit more protection to fermenting meat that then underwent a wild ferment! Most meat pathogens do worse in low pH than Lactic Acid Bacteria, so slightly lowering the pH gave you a chance for decent bacteria to get going instead of listeria etc. But read the Kutas recipes, you have to be clear that Fermento wasn't just added and then BAM, smoke it! No, the meat is always then just left out at room temperatures WELL EXCEEDING the FDA pathogen growth "Come Up Time" or CUT limit, of 6 hrs between 40-130F. This is because all his recipes rely on a WILD FERMENT happening during these rest times! So you can't just talk about Fermento as an ingredient replacing ECA in your summer sausage, you must always talk about "FERMENTO PLUS A WILD FERMENT"!

Lets take a look at the first 4 recipes Kutas has in his book that use Fermento, and I'm just stopping there because I don't want to go on forever:
1. Pg 343, summer sauusage. 9 hrs rest or smoke below 120F, then probably 2-3 more at 165 until IT exceeds 130. So likely 12-15 hrs in the ferment zone! And 3.75% fermento, that's a LOT of dried yogurt to dump in a sausage!
2. Slim jims, pg 345, 20 hrs hanging at 98-110F fermentation temps! 3.75% fermento.
3. Lebanon bologna pg 346, 50 hrs hanging at 90-110f or below! 3.75% fermento.
4. Thuringer, pg 347, 3.75% fermento. 35 hours between 65f and 110f!
Etc. and on and on for every recipe, they ALL ARE WILD FERMENTED!

FERMENTO was originally just cultured whey and skim milk, heat treated to no longer be biologically active... so dried out tangy yogurt! I constantly see people say it is an active culture, IT IS NOT. Current "Fermento" can contain other stuff such as dextrose, glucose solids, sodium erythorbate and ascorbic acid accelerators. The difference in adding Fermento vs pure citric/lactic acid, is the acid is weaker and mixed with the milk solids, where the bonds keep it from just immediately migrating to the meat proteins and breaking them apart. So it is KIND OF SAFE for texture changes. Maybe. If you don't use too much, or mix it too hard with meat or with too much water to free up the chemicals etc. But still not as good as current favorites Encapsulated Citric or Lactic Acid, or GDL.

Remember, all acid is just free hydrogen ions zipping around without an electron, massively reactive and just looking to grab onto anything, breaking molecules up to grab an electron. So slightly acidic dried yogurt is nowhere near as reactive as a real acid like citric, where the ions are just waiting for water to free them.
The H in Fermento is already grabbing milk proteins, so the meat proteins aren't a significantly more attractive target for the H, which is why you can get a bit of pH drop using it, without hacking up the meat texture.

Why is Fermento use all over then? Put yourself in 1985! It was dried yogurt, and was available! There was no Amazon, no online market, no internet to research all this stuff, no books on it, no ability to find a chemical company like BalChem who makes this stuff, no way to know their phone# or even nname.There was no Chr. Hansen Bactoferm meat cultures. Unless you were the Meat Science PhD for Hormel, you never heard of any of this, nor GDL etc! I've beem trying to source ELA from BalChem for a year now, I have all their internet product booklets and MSDS and safety sheets, online email and phone contacts, and have been in touch with company reps 20 times going through their various melt points and coating formulations, and my Dad was President of the 3rd largest flavors and frangrances company in the world and has helped... I still don't have any ELA despite this! Now time travel back to 1985 and try to put together some sausage ingredients as a poor dude writing his first home sausage book...

So, I don't hate Fermento, but I do strongly dislike Wild Ferments, which is what using Fermento really means! There is just no reason to subject your expensive meat and 3 months of effort on a wild ferment anymore. If it is all you can find, then fine... but if you're using it because it is a listed ingredient in Kutas' book, then I'm gonna say there are 4 easier, cheaper, better products out there: ECA, "smooth acid" ECA/ELA blend, GDL, and meat cultures.

Hope that is informative and helpful. I DO love Kutas' book, I bought 2 copies and always reference the recipes for spicing. He did a great job bringing sausage making to us all. Disliking wild ferments and fermento is NOT equal to disrespecting Kutas ;)
Wow, gulp. I have read your reply 3 times to get my brain wrapped around your reply. I'll say thanks and beyond that I am at loss for words.
 
If you want wang tang in your sausage just use a good culture from Chr. Hansen. Wrap the sausage in plastic wrap and place in the oven with just the light on. Most any sausage maker can handle this.
 
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