Is brining boston butts worth the hassle?

[maple sticks]

And that folks is why I joined

 

[toby bryant]

Ok, my head is spinning.  WOW, I now understand the science behind brining.  Somebody send me my diploma please.

Oh yea, I almost forgot, I do not brine, inject, or foil pork butts. 

Anyway, thanks again for the lesson! I love this place.

 

[mdboatbum]

I was afraid of sounding like I was arguing, and didn't want to derail the thread, so I moved the conversation offline. However, Chef Jimmy made some great points that I think should be shared. His comments are in bold.

1. As opposed to denser cuts like pork butt-- "Poultry is a completely different story. The powers in the know like Shirley claim the average Chicken or Turkey will be completely Brined, through and through, in 4 to 8 hours depending on which authority you listen to."

This is something I didn't know, I always thought poultry behaved much like other meats and took much longer to be fully saturated by a brine.

2. On whether the effectiveness of brining is due to take up of the actual brine, or the denaturing of the proteins allowing the meat to hold it's own moisture more effectively---"yes the surface protein does grab and hold brine water there by increasing the surface moisture or in the case of Dry Brining, retains it's existing moisture better unless excessively heated...."   So I think it's safe to say that it's a double edged sword. The salt in the brine denatures the surface proteins thus ALLOWING the meat to absorb AND HOLD ONTO the brine, while at the same time preventing the loss of existing moisture, thus the effectiveness of dry brining. By the same token, a piece of poultry that is soaked in plain water will absorb just about as much as one soaked in a brine, but will lose almost all of it during the cooking process.

I've learned a lot in this little exchange. One of the main things I've learned is to shut up and listen to those who have put in the time and research to draw conclusions based in hard facts. I'm still going to maintain that even an overnight soak in a brine will have a positive effect on a pork butt, but until I do a little (lot) more research and experimentation it's all just speculation on my part.

This forum is a great resource due in no small part to people like Chef Jimmy putting in the time and freely sharing their knowledge.

Now, before this turns into a touchy feely love fest, I think I'll go yell at somebody about brisket.

 

[mountainhawg]

I currently have a shoulder in the reefer that is rubbed and ready to cook tomorrow. Normally I brine shoulders and butts with spices for flavoring and find it works quite well for me. The only problem I see with brining for flavor is it takes quite a bit more seasoning to accomplish the mission, but I think there is better penetration with the brine. I brine for up to 48 hours with no problems. 

 

[chef jimmyj]

Thanks for the Kudos guys...Mdboatbum made an interesting deduction as we discussed the benefit of Brining...We know for a fact that the Sear or Heavy Bark on meat has some yet limited ability to retain moisture...As it rests some juice leaks out but pull the Therm Probe too soon and you got a gusher shooting the juices on the floor! So Bark retains some moisture. The Boatbums deduction was if the brined meat retains moisture it is reasonable that the these moisture retaining denatured proteins may also act as a Sponge, we came to the conclusion the Barrier would be more accurate, holding back or reducing the amount of interior moisture being squeezed to the surface and out as the meat cooks...

 Though I have not heard of this in my research, it is a pretty reasonable assumption and entirely possible this effect does take place. I think this is a pretty cool concept.

The test will be taking Butts of similar weights and Brining one for 3-4 days. This should give about 1 inch of brine penetration. The Brined Butt should be weighed to see how much moisture was absorbed. The butts should then be smoked to an IT of 200*F and weighed again. If the Brined Butt is significantly heavier, taking into consideration the brines added weight and that some of the brine moisture will evaporate, then it may very well be that the Brined 1 inch of meat did act as a Barrier and did help retain moisture...This test is far from scientific because there is no weigh to tell exactly how much weight is lost from the Brined portion of the meat or the meat overall, but if the finished weight is WELL above the brined weight then the Mdboatbum should be nominated for the Nobel Brined Butt Award...

...JJ

 

[redwood carlos]

Well, who is doing the test?

 

[micker]

I almost always brine my butts.  

I think the first butt I smoked was brined and everyone loved it so I've been making it that way since.

 

[mdboatbum]

There is another possibility that just occurred to me. What if capillary activity and/or osmosis come into play during the cooking process?

Let's say you brine a butt for 4 days and get between a half and 3/4 of an inch penetration. We've all agreed somewhat on the fact that the proteins in the part of the meat directly affected by the brine denature and hold onto not only the brine, but also the naturally occurring moisture. So, the outer half inch of the meat is going to be, and remain, moister during the cooking process. This is pretty much a given. Now, WHAT IF, the internal meat fibers, being basically unaffected by the brine, denature during the cooking process and then, being more receptive to the absorption of liquid, and osmosis being what I think it is, draw some of the salt laden liquid from the outer part of the meat further into the (comparatively) salt free interior meat?

So maybe during the cooking the cooking process, the inner meat and the outer meat reach, or at least move closer to, equilibrium?

Now I know what you're going to say. "Ok smarty pants, if osmosis is in play here, then why doesn't the moisture just move OUT of the surface of the meat and evaporate?"

Well, I don't have an answer. Yet.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Osmosis defined...The tendency of molecules of a solvent ( Water ) to pass through a semipermeable membrane ( Meat ) from a less concentrated solution into a more concentrated solution ( Brine )...In other words the moisture liberated in the newly denatured protein would move toward the Salt laden, more concentrated, moisture in the Brined 3/4 inch layer. The complete opposite of what you suggest.  Now what does happen as the temp increases the Sodium Chloride Ions become more excited (Move Rapidly) and Diffuse into the moisture in the increasingly denatured internal protein until the ions are used up. The Interior meat becomes Saltier but just until equilibrium is reached, it taste better that's about it... Osmosis and Evaporation have nothing to do with each other. There is  nothing so concentrated in Air that would cause Osmotic Pressure, that is, cause the water in the meat to move out and try to dilute the Air? Maybe over thinking just a bit...

...JJ

 

[mdboatbum]

Ok, so I had osmosis backwards. I majored in English, not physics. What I was actually referring to was SISOMSO, the process by which molecules move from a higher concentration to a lower one. It's really only really been recognized by one university, which coincidentally, also is home to the leading Dyslexia research lab in the world.

At least I spelled it right. :)

I give up.

 

[chef jimmyj]

LOL...That's Diffusion...Molecules moving from High concentration to Low. But SISOMSO is creative...

...Never give up!...JJ

 

[pgsmoker64]

I love the back and forth guys!  Great information and a brilliantly conducted debate!

By the way MBB...It took a lot of failure before I was able to, in your words "[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]attain a level of prowess assuring perfection every time we fire up the smoker".  And my magic only seems to work on Pork butts and Ribs!!!  [/color]

  I struggle mightily with briskets...they kinda piss me off.  'Course I don't practice with them as much because of the price!

Once again though, great information.  Don' t know that I will remember it all but then that is why I have a computer!

Have a great day guys!

Bill

 

[mountainhawg]

As I had mentioned above I normally brine but had one rubbed in the reefer (48 hour sit). Well the taste of that rubbed shoulder was fabulous. Actually had not rubbed one in over 20 years but will rub the next one to see if I now have a change of heart or just a great rub.