Holy Grail cooking temp (New to smoking, please read)

[wade]

 
Awesome Jimmy, this statement clears things up for me, thank you

So I guess the first question we should ask someone on absurdly long cooks is was the meat "Injected, including factory Enhanced Meat, Ground and Boned-Rolled and Tied Meat", then the "Adopted" rule applies.

Jimmy is it stated somewhere here "as a guideline" that the minimal recommended temp for cooking Pork is 225°?

Yes JJ - a good down-to-earth explanation, thank you.

Squib - The important thing to remember about the definition above "Injected, including factory Enhanced Meat, Ground and Boned-Rolled and Tied Meat" really includes any cut of meat where the surface integrity of the meat has been substantially compromised (e.g. grinding or injecting or where the boned meat has been rolled and tied and is being smoked rolled and tied. The rolling of the meat effectively brings an outside surface into the centre of the cooking meat mass. However, if you buy your meat rolled and tied and then untie and flatten it for cooking, unless it had been hacked by a particularly bad butcher, it can again be classed as an intact piece of meat.

The minimum temperature for cooking any meat really depends on the meat and how it is being cooked. For example, when cooking sous vide something like Chicken is cooked at 150-170 F for 1-2 hours. Pork is often cooked at 140-150 F for 3-4 hours. Now the heat transfer is much more efficient in sous vide cooking as the meat is usually vacuum packed and totally immersed in the water. In the smoker with an intact piece of pork then it would actually be fine to smoke it lower than 225 F. However, unless you have a particular reason to do this a temperature of 225 F is certainly a good recommendation. Does it mean that it would be unsafe if you cooked it at, say, 215 F? Providing it has been subject to good food handling practices before it is smoked then that it would still be perfectly safe.

The 40-140 in 4 is a very good guideline when cooking any meat - but especially when it has been factory Injected, Factory Enhanced, Ground or Boned-Rolled and Tied. Recommending to beginners that meat is cooked at 225 F or above is also a very good guideline. Where it becomes a problem though is where these guidelines gradually morph into unbreakable "rules".

These discussions around "rules" and "guidelines" are good to have periodically so that misunderstandings can be re-aligned. Thanks for raising it 

. 

<<Edited to correct a C to F conversion>>

 

[sqwib]

Yes I understand the concept of injected etc..

And transglutaminase comes to mind, where they are using cut pieces and meat gluing together then cutting in steaks and serving rare, these steaks need to be treated like ground meat and cooked to 160°

Yes the Sous Vide is a different beast and the rules are different per/Thomas Keller.

I always try to promote cooking Butts/Picnics at a minimal of 225°, although it may not be stated anywhere as a Rule or Adopted Rule, but I always felt there's no real benefit to cooking any lower, The only benefit I can see is if someone has a smoker that performs better at a lower heat.

I will cook Ribs at 225° but my larger cuts are 250°-275° at least for the first few hours.

I guess thats just my paranoia, but just knowing that I cooked "40°-140° in 4" does give me piece of mind and hasn't failed me yet.

I guess another reason I apply the Adopted Rule is ,you never know how the meat was handled, packaged, stored, before it hits your pit, maybe it doesn't really apply to the rule but like I said, "it gives me piece of mind".

This has been a nice refresher for me and a very productive thread, and I really appreciate everyone's input, hopefully this will help some newer members out as well.

 

[Flatrate]

Thanks for the post SQWIBS, very informative!

Dave

 

[chef jimmyj]

 
Awesome Jimmy, this statement clears things up for me, thank you

"First...Yes the 40-140 in 4 has been adopted by SMF...BUT...It only, I repeat ONLY applies to Injected, including factory Enhanced Meat, Ground and Boned-Rolled and Tied Meat, Inclusively"

So I guess the first question we should ask someone on absurdly long cooks is was the meat "Injected, including factory Enhanced Meat, Ground and Boned-Rolled and Tied Meat", then the "Adopted" rule applies.

Jimmy is it stated somewhere here "as a guideline" that the minimal recommended temp for cooking Pork is 225°?

" First Question..." Yes Sir...Because the Adopted Rule does not apply to Intact Meat...An old school technique that some chef's still use is to take a 20 Pound Rib Roast, actually several as needed, rub them down with their signiture Rub or just S & P and stick it a tightly sealed and accurately controlled 130°F Oven. The meat is left to cook at this very low temp for up to 24 hours. The Rib Roast comes out a perfect Med/Rare and tender as Butter. Is this temp below the recommended Danger Zone upper limit of 140? Yes, but based on what we know from extensive Pasteurization studies, given Time, 130°F will kill bacteria just as effectively as 140,165, or 225+. Is it OK to cook a Meatloaf at 130 for 24 hours? NO WAY!

The " Adopted Rule " More accurately adopted " Guideline " is fine, was written by BBally with good intentions, and offers a broad margin of Safety. But, it has been thrown about like your Mom saying. " Don't Run with Scissors ", " Wait an Hour after Eating before you go in the Pool" or " Because I SAID SO! " It is endlessly repeated without anyone explaining why or in many cases does not apply at all, there is no reason to wait after eating to swim! It has gotten to the point that Thousands of Dollars of Newbie Smoked Meat is being thrown out because some SMF Veterans and other Newbies alike, are beating them over the head with the " Rule " The Problem is they are either forgetting or not ever knowing that it only applies to meat that has been Injected, etc. We at SMF preach that we have the Friendliest, most Knowledgable people in the Art of Smoking. We say we are here to Help Anyone at Anytime and most importantly, are here to Pass on our Knowledge. I seem to remember a Post to OTBS members to be Accurate and Correct with our answers or let somebody who knows answer the question...To me that means we need to provide Accurate and Detailed information. Not just Rules...

The Minimum Recommended Temp comes from the USDA. Again, it is a Guideline created for General Safety offering a margin of error. Is it a Law, Rule or Cut in Stone? No, because if you know what you are doing, why and under what circumstances, you can safely smoke at lower temps...JJ

The following is from the USDA Smoking Meat and Poultry Fact Sheet. Some items were highlighted...  http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal...od-handling/smoking-meat-and-poultry/CT_Index

Use Two Thermometers to Smoke Food Safely
To ensure meat and poultry are smoked safely, you'll need two types of thermometers: one for the food and one for the smoker. A thermometer is needed to monitor the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process. Many smokers have built-in thermometers.

Use a food thermometer to determine the temperature of the meat or poultry. Oven-safe thermometers can be inserted in the meat and remain there during smoking. Use an instant-read thermometer after the meat is taken out of the smoker. Notice the USDA said Nothing about waiting 2 hours before inserting the Thermometer or Wait until the IT goes over 140°F...

Cooking time depends on many factors: the type of meat, its size and shape, the distance of food from the heat, the temperature of the coals, and the weather. It can take anywhere from 4 to 8 hours to smoke meat or poultry, so it's imperative to use thermometers to monitor temperatures.

 

[fwismoker]

All this is great info and I know has been hashed over and over on here but I always learn something new.

JJ I have a question for you and will give you an example to work with .     What's your opinion if say a child left the fridge door ajar (like that ever happens haha) and there was a brisket or butt in unopened cryovac and you didn't find out until morning from the evening prior.    The temp in the fridge in the morning is basically room temp... What would you do?

 

[lamar]

Very well stated JJ. I wish there was some way to have your post a "required reading" and possibly put the subject to rest once and for all. There has been too many arguments on the subject down through the years.
Keep up the good work, JJ.

Lamar

 

[sqwib]

"based on what we know from extensive Pasteurization studies, given Time, 130°F will kill bacteria just as effectively as 140,165, or 225+"

Now that I never knew, and thought it only applied to Sous Vide, very interesting.

Not to get too far off Ttopic but "Time Given" is there a chart for pasteurization times and temps like Douglas Baldwins Sous Vide Book?

Pasteurization Time for Meat (Beef, Pork, and Lamb)
(starting at 41°F / 5°C and put in a 131–151°F / 55–66°C water bath)

	55°C	56°C	57°C	58°C	59°C	60°C
Thickness	131°F	133°F	134.5°F	136.5°F	138°F	140°F
5 mm	2 hr	1¼ hr	60 min	45 min	40 min	30 min
10 mm	2 hr	1½ hr	1¼ hr	55 min	45 min	40 min
15 mm	2¼ hr	1¾ hr	1½ hr	1¼ hr	60 min	55 min
20 mm	2½ hr	2 hr	1¾ hr	1½ hr	1¼ hr	1¼ hr
25 mm	2¾ hr	2¼ hr	2 hr	1¾ hr	1½ hr	1½ hr
30 mm	3 hr	2½ hr	2 hr	2 hr	1¾ hr	1½ hr
35 mm	3¼ hr	2¾ hr	2¼ hr	2 hr	2 hr	1¾ hr
40 mm	3½ hr	3 hr	2½ hr	2¼ hr	2¼ hr	2 hr
45 mm	4 hr	3¼ hr	3 hr	2¾ hr	2½ hr	2¼ hr
50 mm	4½ hr	3¾ hr	3¼ hr	3 hr	2¾ hr	2½ hr
55 mm	5 hr	4¼ hr	3¾ hr	3½ hr	3 hr	3 hr
60 mm	5¼ hr	4¾ hr	4¼ hr	3¾ hr	3½ hr	3¼ hr
65 mm	6 hr	5¼ hr	4¾ hr	4¼ hr	4 hr	3¾ hr
70 mm	6½ hr	5¾ hr	5¼ hr	4¾ hr	4¼ hr	4 hr

 

[sqwib]

Very well stated JJ. I wish there was some way to have your post a "required reading" and possibly put the subject to rest once and for all. There has been too many arguments on the subject down through the years.
Keep up the good work, JJ.

Lamar

Lamar, just to be clear, this thread is a discussion not an argument and I think it has been very productive. Jimmy has put this to rest so-to-speak, several time lol.'

See post a #13 by dirtsailors link.

 

[sqwib]

We get too complacent, Here's an example,

Newbie: Hey I've been smoking at 200° for 6 hours and my internal temp is 130 how long will it take?

SMF: Bump up the temp a little and you should be ok.

Newbie: Thanks

and thats the end of it....

                 ......what we should be saying is,

Newbie: Hey I've been smoking at 200° for 6 hours and my internal temp is 130 how long will it take?

SMF: "has the meat been compromised did you inject".

Newbie: Yes Injected and deboned

Now we can recite the 40-140 in 4 adopted guideline to reduce the risk of a foodborne illness.

 

[lovethemeats]

Very good open discussion going on. Just frustrating subject. I find it to be a learning experience. And I also see the view point of maybe asking a little more questions before the reply. Maybe this will open them doors. But I also see that fault in all of us. Its not blame we should seek but knowledge and change.
Rob Z, Mi

 

[chef jimmyj]

 
All this is great info and I know has been hashed over and over on here but I always learn something new.

JJ I have a question for you and will give you an example to work with .     What's your opinion if say a child left the fridge door ajar (like that ever happens haha) and there was a brisket or butt in unopened cryovac and you didn't find out until morning from the evening prior.    The temp in the fridge in the morning is basically room temp... What would you do?

Ok...By the Book and in accordance with SMF Policy, USDA and FDA Regulations, especially in a Restuarant Setting were an unknown group of individuals of questionable Health will be eating the Meat. It has been in the Danger Zone more than 2 hours and should be discarded...

But Your Question is what would I do? I have trained extensively in food safety, Meat processing and packaging and understand the Risks. My answer applies to Me and my Family and is no way supported by SMF Staff, the Owners, or Federal Agencies. This answer IS NOT a recommendation as to what You or Anybody reading this should or can do in this or any similar situation!

So with all the Legal BS out of the way...

In general, National Packers that Cryovac have extensive HACCP programs that monitor every step that the meat goes through from Slaughter to Packaging. Strict Hygiene Practices and Temp Controls are monitored and documented with periodic shutdown of operations for Cleaning and Sanitizing during each shift. These practices allow meat to be packed in the middle of the country, warehoused on site, transported across country to Grocery Chain Warehouses, stored there until an orderer is placed, then transported across the state to individual stores and stored longer until the seal is broken, the meat is portioned, packaged and placed of the selves. From Slaughter to Sales takes weeks. This would not be possible if the Cryovac Packages were heavily laden with Bacteria as even under refrigeration, meat that has had the seal broken and exposed to bacteria, spoils in 3-5 days... Is this 100% fool proof? No...

I have had this Exact thing happen some 15 years ago with a two pack of Ribs and handled it as follows...The INTACT meat, not Enhanced, was in Sealed Cryovac, not Puffy or Leaking and when opened, a slight off smell, common with Vacpac meat, dissipated within 1 to 2 minutes...I gave them a wash to remove any possible Bacteria, being careful to not splash water on other surfaces. I Dryed them with freshly washed and Gloved Hands using disposable Paper Towels, Rubbed the racks down with my Salt and Sugar based Rub, wrapped in plastic and Refered the meat while I got my Offset Smoker to 275°F. I went from Refer to smoker directly and smoked the meat, Monitoring the Smoker Temp constantly, for 4 hours until the Ribs passed the bend test. I had no issues with the smoker or Temp control. I and my family enjoyed the Ribs with my freshly made BBQ Sauce. ALL other opened containers, leftovers from previous meals and 3 Pounds of Ground Beef that was for Meatloaf the next day,  got Tossed and the Refer was washed out with a Bleach Solution...JJ

 

[chef jimmyj]

There are quite a few Pasteurization Charts from an assortment of tests and sources. Wade posted one in Post 12 and below is another.

Again to our readers, this info was for clarification of a Safety Subject that comes up periodically. It is not intended to discredit any member and serves as a reminder that we are here to help each other...JJ

 

[fwismoker]

JJ I've always assumed that all the enhanced meats  were just placed into liquid,So you're saying there is a mechanical aspect to it?   So pretty much enhanced meats should NOT be considered intact I assume.

 

[chef jimmyj]

 
JJ I've always assumed that all the enhanced meats  were just placed into liquid,So you're saying there is a mechanical aspect to it?  Without getting into too much what is actually being done say for some enhanced Smith Farms ribs?  Thanks!

Companies don't have the Time to let meat Marinate or Soak in a Brine. The line moves fast and time is Money. The most efficient and fast method to add flavor and especially Water Weight is to Inject. Not a major Safety issue for you or me because we inject fresh made whatever and toss the leftover. In industry, little is wasted. Either the machines have recovery reservoirs or in the case of large Poultry operations, the reservoirs are in the Floor! All the overflow injection liquid, dripping body fluids, blood, leftover guts and anything else on the floor gets into the floor reservoir, solids are filtered but that contaminated Liquid is pumped into thousands of Birds. While no individual or even Lot of birds is contaminated with Salmonella coming into the processor, if ANY during that day are contaminated, that Bacteria gets in the Brine and every successive bird in the run is then injected with the contaminated Enhancing Broth. Enhanced Ribs, Loins,Teriyaki Pork Tenderloins, Corned Beef, Hams, Commercial Bacon, Chicken and Turkeys...All are Injected...JJ

 

[wade]

Here is a good example of ham being made commercially which shows how the curing is achieved rapidly by injection rather than soaking. Any cure that is is not taken up by the hams is collected and returned to the cure reservoir. You will also see that they are initially smoked at 150-180 F for 12 hours. This is a commercial operation curing and selling thousands of hams and their methods are deemed to be safe. This puts our discussion about minimum cooking temperatures and danger zones into perspective I think.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Great video...That is the Cook's Plant. They make a delicious Ham! Too bad they trim all that tasty Fat. The injection of Cure in Ham and going immediately into Smoke and cooking negates any hazard with recycled injection liquid. Unfortunately, Chicken is not processed the same way and how we handle and cook it becomes important...JJ 

 

[sqwib]

 
JJ I've always assumed that all the enhanced meats  were just placed into liquid,So you're saying there is a mechanical aspect to it?   So pretty much enhanced meats should NOT be considered intact I assume.

 
Companies don't have the Time to let meat Marinate or Soak in a Brine. The line moves fast and time is Money. The most efficient and fast method to add flavor and especially Water Weight is to Inject. Not a major Safety issue for you or me because we inject fresh made whatever and toss the leftover. In industry, little is wasted. Either the machines have recovery reservoirs or in the case of large Poultry operations, the reservoirs are in the Floor! All the overflow injection liquid, dripping body fluids, blood, leftover guts and anything else on the floor gets into the floor reservoir, solids are filtered but that contaminated Liquid is pumped into thousands of Birds. While no individual or even Lot of birds is contaminated with Salmonella coming into the processor, if ANY during that day are contaminated, that Bacteria gets in the Brine and every successive bird in the run is then injected with the contaminated Enhancing Broth. Enhanced Ribs, Loins,Teriyaki Pork Tenderloins, Corned Beef, Hams, Commercial Bacon, Chicken and Turkeys...All are Injected...JJ

Very Interesting.

 

[fwismoker]

This makes want to never eat another enhanced bird ever every again.  I'm sure I will though because they're so much more common   What I really hate about some enhanced birds is sometimes you get some really mushy ones!   YUCK!!!

Thanks for the expertise JJ

 

[julius]

This thread has been a great help to me. I've been so concerned with smoking that perfect bird or butt, etc. that i never really stopped to think about food safety, thankfully I've never really broken any of the "rules" but it's def something I'll think about on future cooks.
Thanks for all the great info!