Ham not cured properly.

[Lord Montgomery von Agoho]

Hi all.
I took a fresh ham and seperated all individual muscles. Then I EQ cured them (2.5% salt 0.25% cure 1) for 12 day. After which I dried it in my ref for 24 hours to be finished smoking at 160-170 until int temp was 145.
If you look at the picture, there is still a grey spot. Isn’t 12 days enough for 1.5”??? I would think it must be, So what am I doing wrong? Pls advise. Thx in advance

 

[YooperSmoker]

did you inject the meat with the brine?
we just did 2 hams last night and used a injector to soak the inside of each cut
especially around the bone
don't want ''bone sour''
I see you parted out the ham
any chunks over a inch thick possibly could not cure in the middle.

Mike

 

[Bearcarver]

I don't use Cure #1, I use TQ.
However I can help maybe a little.
I don't know what "EQ" brine is. The first time I saw that, I thought somebody meant TQ, but made a Boo-Boo.
If it means Equilibrium Brine (EB), then that means the mix is weak enough to allow the meat to come to the point of not getting any more heavily cured than one would want. So if your mix is right, there is no maximum time of curing.
In other words, you could have it in that cure mix for a month, and it wouldn't be too long.
So if you have a window, I would go to the Long end of that window, and I would think 12 days is closer to the short or middle of that window.
So with an equalizing cure, I would maybe go to 14 or 16 days, or longer.
Also I usually inject some cure in meat that is over 3" thick, and many guys do it at 2" thick.

However, looking at your pics, the only grey spot I'm seeing, looks like a glare on the meat, from a light.

Bear

 

[Lord Montgomery von Agoho]

I don't use Cure #1, I use TQ.
However I can help maybe a little.
I don't know what "EQ" brine is. The first time I saw that, I thought somebody meant TQ, but made a Boo-Boo.
If it means Equilibrium Brine (EB), then that means the mix is weak enough to allow the meat to come to the point of not getting any more heavily cured than one would want. So if your mix is right, there is no maximum time of curing.
In other words, you could have it in that cure mix for a month, and it wouldn't be too long.
So if you have a window, I would go to the Long end of that window, and I would think 12 days is closer to the short or middle of that window.
So with an equalizing cure, I would maybe go to 14 or 16 days, or longer.
Also I usually inject some cure in meat that is over 3" thick, and many guys do it at 2" thick.

However, looking at your pics, the only grey spot I'm seeing, looks like a glare on the meat, from a light.

Bear

Yes its an equilibrium brine. I prefer that as its impossible to over salt. The % are perfect for my bacon which only takes 5 days to cure (our pigs here are very small). And i used the same % for the ham. it was curing for 12 days because i forgot it. online literature say 4-5 days should be enough for this size. So I don’t see time as an issue. The grey spot is not a glare as i can see it not only in a photo but when I’m moving the meat around.

since i don’t add any liquid to the cure it’s not possible to inject it.

I’m wondering how important is the temperature of my refrigerator? Mine is close to or touching 0 C. Would that slow down the curing process?

 

[DougE]

I’m wondering how important is the temperature of my refrigerator? Mine is close to or touching 0 C. Would that slow down the curing process?

It shouldn't as long as nothing is freezing in your fridge. My barn fridge runs as cold as yours, or even a little colder in winter, but I cure in it without any problems. I know nothing is freezing in there since I also keep bottled water in it. The salt in your cure will lower the freeze point, too, so there's that, also.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Equilibrium curing takes time by design. You are pushing the time line and you have a very small grey spot. This can be normal with EQ brining. Remember with brining generally, you can expect a 10% pick up at maximum. Or the best approach with EQ is to inject always 10% brine to meat weight. This will solve your problem. This includes pieces from 1” up.

 

[Lord Montgomery von Agoho]

Equilibrium curing takes time by design. You are pushing the time line and you have a very small grey spot. This can be normal with EQ brining. Remember with brining generally, you can expect a 10% pick up at maximum. Or the best approach with EQ is to inject always 10% brine to meat weight. This will solve your problem. This includes pieces from 1” up.

I did not know that brining generally only pick up 10%. I make a bunch of Lomo and Bresaola with EQ (then air dry) without fail and i always assumed that with osmosis the salt (and friends) would even out with time. Meaning salt goes where there is no salt and the same for water. therefore all salt or at least 95% would be absorbed by the meat.

since i am using EQ i do not see how i can inject a dry salt/spice solution into the meat evenly.

I’m 90% sure i hit the right int temp, but if i failed would that affect color? at what temp does the meat change color or has that already happened during brining?

 

[SmokinEdge]

I’m 90% sure i hit the right int temp, but if i failed would that affect color? at what temp does the meat change color or has that already happened during brining?

If you are dry brine then that’s a different process. I was under the impression this was a water brine.
Dry brine is much more powerful than wet because the salt applied is 100%, and through diffusion the salt travels into the meat which is low salt, the water inside the meat travels to the surface where the salt is trying to balance. The nitrite follows the salt, the higher the salt percentage the faster the process happens. Salt is the horsepower that make the curing process happen.

Then I EQ cured them (2.5% salt 0.25% cure 1) for 12 day.

For final salt percentage you add the regular salt with the cure salt so you used 2.5% salt and .25% cure 1 making your all in salt percentage 2.75% salt. 3% salt is generally accepted as the highest amount in dry brine and be palatable. I use 1.5% salt, .25% cure 1 with .75% sugar for the final flavor that we like. (All in salt 1.75%) That said your meat is cured at 12 days in dry brine.

Cure 1 is 6.25% nitrite and 93.75% salt. In the curing process the nitrite follows salt into the meat where the nitrite interacts with myoglobin and is converted from nitrite to nitric oxide and is fixed to the iron molecules in myoglobin. This process is what fixes the pinkish red color of cured meat. The more myoglobin present the stronger the cured color. Different muscle have different amounts of myoglobin. Fish have no myoglobin and do not change color in the presents of nitrite.

at what temp does the meat change color or has that already happened during brining?

The color change is subtle in raw meat. Heat is where we see the color brighten up. Best color happens at around 160F. You may want to slice off a piece of that ham and fry it. My guess is that the result will be solid pink color In that piece. It is possible that the center of the ham piece you posted a picture of was not 145F, but lower, and that is why you see the color difference.

 

[Bearcarver]

Yes its an equilibrium brine. I prefer that as its impossible to over salt.
since i don’t add any liquid to the cure it’s not possible to inject it.

I’m wondering how important is the temperature of my refrigerator? Mine is close to or touching 0 C. Would that slow down the curing process?

As for the Fridge Temps:
The best temp for curing is between 36° and 38°.
Getting down too close to 32° will slow the curing process.
How much slower & at what point, I can't help you. (mine stays at 37°)
I keep mine at 37°-- + or - 1°.

The other thing----Maybe it's me, because I never did an Equilibrium Brine:
My understanding is that Like Pops' method, and equilibrium brine is Cure #1 mixed with water to a certain percentage that makes the strength so that when the meat gets to a certain point that it is the same balance as the water it sits in, and any longer in that brine won't change anything within the meat. Hence it reaches it's "equilibrium" with the Brine.

The part that is baffling my 73 year old brain is "How can you possibly do an equilibrium without adding any water? Equilibrium Dry Cure?? How does that work?"

Bear

 

[SmokinEdge]

The part that is baffling my 73 year old brain is "How can you possibly do an equilibrium without adding any water? Equilibrium Dry Cure?? How does that work?"

Here is how I look at it.
Pretty much most all common cure methods are equilibrium, in that the meat and the cure, weather wet brine or dry cure, will come to equilibrium or become in balance.

Cover brine (pickle) being the exception if no injection is used. The amount of uptake of salt and cure is really a guess with cover pickle alone. The stronger the brine or the higher the SAL is the more salt available to diffuse into the meat but the exact amount is really still just a guess.

I think that most people who us the phrase “EQ” brine or curing, really mean they are trying to impart a known amount of salt and nitrite into the meat. So for example, if I dry brine my pork belly with 1.5% salt, .25% cure #1 and .75% sugar, rub this all onto the meat and place in a zip bag and into the fridge, no mater if for 1 week or 3 weeks the amounts of my cure will never be more, that is never can be more than 1.5% salt, .25% cure #1 and .75% sugar. This control is what I think folks are referring to when the “EQ” cure.

Like wise in water brine EQ brine is weighing the amount of water and the meat (sometimes even the dry ingredients) adding this together and basing their percentage of salt, sugar and cure #1 off of that total weight. In that way the meat salt and cure #1 can never be more than the percentage in the brine.

The term “dry brine” comes from the fact that when you apply dry cure mix to meat and bag it, the salt extracts water from the meat that is visible in the bag, hence the brine.

 

[SmokinAl]

I think the consensus is that you just didn’t leave it in the cure long enough. Bet the next one will be better!
Al

 

[Bearcarver]

Here is how I look at it.
Pretty much most all common cure methods are equilibrium, in that the meat and the cure, weather wet brine or dry cure, will come to equilibrium or become in balance.

Cover brine (pickle) being the exception if no injection is used. The amount of uptake of salt and cure is really a guess with cover pickle alone. The stronger the brine or the higher the SAL is the more salt available to diffuse into the meat but the exact amount is really still just a guess.

I think that most people who us the phrase “EQ” brine or curing, really mean they are trying to impart a known amount of salt and nitrite into the meat. So for example, if I dry brine my pork belly with 1.5% salt, .25% cure #1 and .75% sugar, rub this all onto the meat and place in a zip bag and into the fridge, no mater if for 1 week or 3 weeks the amounts of my cure will never be more, that is never can be more than 1.5% salt, .25% cure #1 and .75% sugar. This control is what I think folks are referring to when the “EQ” cure.

Like wise in water brine EQ brine is weighing the amount of water and the meat (sometimes even the dry ingredients) adding this together and basing their percentage of salt, sugar and cure #1 off of that total weight. In that way the meat salt and cure #1 can never be more than the percentage in the brine.

The term “dry brine” comes from the fact that when you apply dry cure mix to meat and bag it, the salt extracts water from the meat that is visible in the bag, hence the brine.

Well, like I said, "My experience is from 12 years of Dry Curing with TQ.
I always put the right amount of TQ on the meat I'm curing, as do most other people. However I go by a formula to figure out my time in cure, and I never have any that is too salty.
Many other people complain about TQ being too salty, and many quit with TQ & go to Cure #1. However if they would figure their time in cure properly, they wouldn't get it too salty.
That is because when you Dry Cure, you aren't diluting your TQ, like you do when you do an Equilibrium brine. And if you should cure it with TQ for 12 days, and you end up curing it for 3 weeks, it's going to be TOO SALTY, because you gave it a high strength of cure for too long! So in My Opinion, if you Dry cure with TQ, there is such a thing as curing too long, because you keep hammering it with full strength Cure, until it gets down to a low enough strength to stop adding.

This is hard for me to explain, but that's what I've seen over 12 years.

Bear

 

[SmokinEdge]

Well, like I said, "My experience is from 12 years of Dry Curing with TQ.
I always put the right amount of TQ on the meat I'm curing, as do most other people. However I go by a formula to figure out my time in cure, and I never have any that is too salty.
Many other people complain about TQ being too salty, and many quit with TQ & go to Cure #1. However if they would figure their time in cure properly, they wouldn't get it too salty.
That is because when you Dry Cure, you aren't diluting your TQ, like you do when you do an Equilibrium brine. And if you should cure it with TQ for 12 days, and you end up curing it for 3 weeks, it's going to be TOO SALTY, because you gave it a high strength of cure for too long! So in My Opinion, if you Dry cure with TQ, there is such a thing as curing too long, because you keep hammering it with full strength Cure, until it gets down to a low enough strength to stop adding.

This is hard for me to explain, but that's what I've seen over 12 years.

Bear

This is a great example of a non EQ cure. Tender quick requires a lot of product to cure, this means a lot of salt. Partially because there is only .5% nitrite and .5% nitrate In TQ. The low nitrite still works if salt percentage is high enough, but you have to manage the curing process carefully or meats will be too salty or under cured.

When we use cure #1 and apply the exact amount of salt and nitrite that we want in the finished product, we get exactly that. The perfect blend of salt and cure. This is why people shy away from TQ. It’s very antiquated plus it adds unneeded nitrates.

 

[Bearcarver]

This is a great example of a non EQ cure. Tender quick requires a lot of product to cure, this means a lot of salt. Partially because there is only .5% nitrite and .5% nitrate In TQ. The low nitrite still works if salt percentage is high enough, but you have to manage the curing process carefully or meats will be too salty or under cured.

When we use cure #1 and apply the exact amount of salt and nitrite that we want in the finished product, we get exactly that. The perfect blend of salt and cure. This is why people shy away from TQ. It’s very antiquated plus it adds unneeded nitrates.

OK---That's a big help for me---Thanks!

I know I always said I like the flavor better from TQ.
However I also said, "If I ever wanted to do a bunch of small items, like Chicken Drums & Thighs, I would use Pops' method of Equilibrium Brine, so I can just put the pieces in the brine, instead of having to personally coat each & every piece with TQ.
However it appears as though my lack of being able to cure at all has come to me before I ever got around to trying that with Pops' Brine cure. My curing days are over.

Bear

 

[SmokinEdge]

OK---That's a big help for me---Thanks!

I know I always said I like the flavor better from TQ.
However I also said, "If I ever wanted to do a bunch of small items, like Chicken Drums & Thighs, I would use Pops' method of Equilibrium Brine, so I can just put the pieces in the brine, instead of having to personally coat each & every piece with TQ.
However it appears as though my lack of being able to cure at all has come to me before I ever got around to trying that with Pops' Brine cure. My curing days are over.

Bear

Sorry to hear you are no longer able. That sucks. I have a link here for you to read. It is about the origins of “Prague salt” it’s a 20th century thing for the most part, but a German company at the forefront of this technology at the time bought Mortan salt company. They then were influential in the development of the TQ products, which were made in the same vein as what is now known in Europe as Peklosole cure salt which is white in color and contains .6% nitrite, (no nitrate) In Europe this is considered safe as if you applied too much cure salt to be unsafe for nitrite, the meat would be too salty to eat. Morton’s TQ is the same and was developed by a German company. It’s a long read but very informative.

https://earthwormexpress.com/tag/origin-of-prague-powder/

 

[Bearcarver]

Sorry to hear you are no longer able. That sucks. I have a link here for you to read. It is about the origins of “Prague salt” it’s a 20th century thing for the most part, but a German company at the forefront of this technology at the time bought Mortan salt company. They then were influential in the development of the TQ products, which were made in the same vein as what is now known in Europe as Peklosole cure salt which is white in color and contains .6% nitrite, (no nitrate) In Europe this is considered safe as if you applied too much cure salt to be unsafe for nitrite, the meat would be too salty to eat. Morton’s TQ is the same and was developed by a German company. It’s a long read but very informative.

https://earthwormexpress.com/tag/origin-of-prague-powder/

Thank You!!
Yes it was long, but interesting enough to keep me going to the finish.

Bear