ECA Question in last post

[smokinjoe52]

Well, I attempted my first stuffed beef sticks today.  I mixed the meat up by hand, then added the ECA, and remixed by hand.  I used the stuffing attachment on the Kitchenaid, and the meat turned whitish and slimy as it feed into the casings.  It almost looked homogenized.  Apparently just running it through the auger (no grind plate or blade) on the Kitchenaid releases the ECA.  It was quite difficult to force the hamburger through the Kitchenaid, as I was using a small stuffing tube.

I mixed 5 lbs of meat, but only stuffed about 3 lbs because it was taking so long, and the meat looked, you know, whitish and slimy. 

My most pressing question is:  Are the finished beef sticks still edible?  Should I smoke them tomorrow and give them a try.

Or should they hit the garbage like I suspect?

Thanks,

Smokinjoe

 

[daveomak]

Joe, evening... I don't know but will bump your thread....  I think I have read, on this forum, do not run the ECA through the grinder due to the capsules breaking.... the pressure from the auger could have done that....   they are supposed to dissolve at a certain temp....

I would think the meat would still be good, just not pretty....  Citric acid is the same regardless of how it is applied, unless by something weird, temp plays a role...  cook some meat in a pan and see what it looks like....  and you can give it the nose test during cooking too.... 

 Dave

 

[smokinjoe52]

I was aware of not running through the grinder, but as I did not have the plate or the blade on, I thought I would be OK.  I was dead wrong. The auger and really forcing the meat into the auger apparently released most/all of the ECA.

I am interested to know how they would turn out if I went ahead and smoked them, and brought them up to the correct IT.

I guess I could try the same recipe sans the ECA, although I have the 19mm casings, and I have to use the small Kitchenaid tube.  It is very difficult to force the meat into the auger.  The meat keeps coming up the sides of the pusher, since it does not fit well, and is designed to push chunks of meat into the grinder.  It is a 3/8" tube.  The 19mm casing won't fit on the 5/8" tube.  I need different equipment!!!!

Smokinjoe

 

[daveomak]

Joe, sounds like a vertical stuffer is on the wish list.....    Lots of them on the market.... Search "vertical stuffer" in the search bar.... lots of reviews also.....   

 

[BGKYSmoker]

The collagen holding the CA broke which made the CA start to work. Thats why you got white mushy meat.

Never auger even without the plade and plate. If your using a KA use the dough hook and bowl to mix in the ECA.

 

[so ms smoker]

  I have found that a meat grinder is wonderfull for grinding meat. But as a sausage stuffer, it aint so good. If you don't have that third hand/arm growing out of your forehead, it is nearly impossible!  I forsee a verticle stuffer in both our futures!

  Mike

 

[smokinjoe52]

BUT...should I throw them away or smoke them????

 

[dward51]

As to the "slimy" stuff...  It's already mixed and stuffed, so you might as well see if smokes ok instead of throwing it out.  Nothing to loose at this point on what is already done.

 

[smokinjoe52]

Does anybody have experience with how these white slimy beef sticks would taste once smoked?

 

[smokinjoe52]

Well, I have a LEM 5lb vertical stuffer on the way.  I am surprised no one weighed in on how a"slimed" beef stick turns out. 

LEM products have a new model 606SS that has steel gears and comes with 3 SS stuffing tubes. I could ONLY find it on the LEM site.  Also ordered some 17mm casing and the spray silicone.

I may try this without the ECA the first time.  LEM's instructions say that if you are going to cure the meat in the fridge overnight, do not add the ECA until the next day and you are about ready to stuff and smoke.

On the other hand, others say to stuff quickly right after mixing so the meat doesn't get like "concrete".

What do you guys recommend?

1. Use ECA and Cure #1 mix, stuff and smoke right away.

2. Mix spices and Cure #1, in the fridge overnight, add ECA and enough water to allow the meat to be pushed through a 3/8 ID tube.

3. Don't use ECA, but mix and stuff, fridge, then smoke the next day.

Any input on this would be appreciated.  I have made hamburger sausage with Morton's TQ, so I know how firm the meat can get.  I am not sure if it can be made stuffer friendly again by adding water.

Thanks,

Smokinjoe

 

[diyelker]

Well this is a guess...but my guess is that the flavor won't be affected much. However, my understanding is that the citric acid is encapsulated for texture purposes. My guess is that the texture will be somewhat dry and the meat will be grainy. Let us know how it turns out. I had a similar experience. I used a vertical stuffer and the ECA was stuffed properly, but I had my smoker temps too high initially, which melted the ECA too soon, and my snack sticks were good, but the texture was grainy. Report back.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

The ECA is encapsulated for the slow release of the CA within. The outer collagen (like a capsule) breaks down at 130*

To much CA introduced into the meat to fast will make the meat mushy and white

 

[big casino]

The ECA gives the meat a tangy flavor, like a fermented sausage has, it will only change the texture of the sausage if used improperly.

the meat will stiffen if cured in the fridge over night and definitely make it hard to push through the smallest tube, and probably give you some blowouts altho I am not familiar with collagen casings,

It will not change the flavor of your sticks to grind,mix,stuff,smoke, all in the same day, curing a sausage that is comminuted happens almost instantly, and definitely by the time of your smoke

 

[smokinjoe52]

So, you don't really need to let CURE #1 work overnight?? 

That was something I was not sure about.  If you can do everything in one day, that is great.

and probably makes ECA easier to use.  Do you guys think that mixing, adding ECA, stuffing and smoking the NEXT DAY is just something that should not be done?

I have seen and used several recipes that use Morton TQ.  Many of these recipes call for mixing, then storing in the fridge for 1, 2, even 3 days before they go into the smoker.  I am just confused about what Cure #1 will do if you mix, stuff and smoke all at once.

Any enlightenment along those lines would be appreciated.

Smokinjoe

 

[DanMcG]

I like to grind, mix in the cure spice and ECA and immediately stuff into casings. Then hang the sticks in the frig to dry overnight (or longer) to let the flavors meld. The cure doesn't need much time to do it's thing when you have ground meat. You'll notice that your nice red meat mix will turn a gray/brown color in a short time, that's the cure at work.

 

[big casino]

So, you don't really need to let CURE #1 work overnight?? 

That was something I was not sure about.  If you can do everything in one day, that is great.

and probably makes ECA easier to use.  Do you guys think that mixing, adding ECA, stuffing and smoking the NEXT DAY is just something that should not be done?

I have seen and used several recipes that use Morton TQ.  Many of these recipes call for mixing, then storing in the fridge for 1, 2, even 3 days before they go into the smoker.  I am just confused about what Cure #1 will do if you mix, stuff and smoke all at once.

Any enlightenment along those lines would be appreciated.

Smokinjoe

No Joe if your making a ground sausage  and using cure#1 you do not HAVE to let it cure in the refrigerator over night, some recipes for certain types of sausages that have a Harder/stiffer texture to the sausage will instruct you to let the cured meat sit in the fridge for a day or two and the meat will stiffen and in the end make a harder textured sausage, if you skip the rest in the refrigerator step, your sausage will still be cured, but the texture will more than likely be softer, the rest in the refrigerator will also make the meat harder to push through your stuffing tubes so trying to stuff snack sticks gets to be a task, where as something in a larger casing like summer sausage isn't as bad.

I don't know much about MTQ, I think it is similar to cure#1 someone else will probably know the answer to that

I like to grind, mix in the cure spice and ECA and immediately stuff into casings. Then hang the sticks in the frig to dry overnight (or longer) to let the flavors meld. The cure doesn't need much time to do it's thing when you have ground meat. You'll notice that your nice red meat mix will turn a gray/brown color in a short time, that's the cure at work.

Dan mixing the ECA into your sausage and letting it stand in the fridge over night or longer doesn't react with your meat b4 you smoke it? a friend of mine did that once and the sausage turned out really vinergary and dry and crumbly

 

[smokinjoe52]

Ok, that makes sense.  I like a hamburger sausage that is in the fridge for 4 days before smoking.  It does set up quite hard, which is what I want for that..  I think I will try the ECA, but mix stuff and smoke all at once. We will see if the product is too soft.

 I would like to hear from guys who stuff using ECA, and then let it rest in the fridge for at least a day.  Does the ECA stay "encapsulated"?

Smokinjoe

 

[dward51]

Along the lines of letting meat set to firm up and cure before stuffing, I have a question.

Since the meat stiffens up and is harder to stuff into snack stick casings after sitting in the fridge a few days. What would the difference be between letting the meat set or "season" in a fridge for a few days and then stuffing, as opposed to stuffing when first mixed and then letting the stuffed sticks sit in the fridge for a few days?   I would think the end taste/texture would be the same, but you get them stuffed before the meat tends to firm up. Seems like most of the posts show everybody mixes and lets it sit as mixed to "season" (in a 5lb or larger mass of meat). 

Is there any reason not to stuff into the snack stick casing and then season the sticks in the fridge before smoking?

Just curious about this (or did I miss something)?

 

[big casino]

Along the lines of letting meat set to firm up and cure before stuffing, I have a question.

Since the meat stiffens up and is harder to stuff into snack stick casings after sitting in the fridge a few days. What would the difference be between letting the meat set or "season" in a fridge for a few days and then stuffing, as opposed to stuffing when first mixed and then letting the stuffed sticks sit in the fridge for a few days?   I would think the end taste/texture would be the same, but you get them stuffed before the meat tends to firm up. Seems like most of the posts show everybody mixes and lets it sit as mixed to "season" (in a 5lb or larger mass of meat). 

Is there any reason not to stuff into the snack stick casing and then season the sticks in the fridge before smoking?

Just curious about this (or did I miss something)?

there would be nothing wrong with stuffing and letting the stuffed sausage  rest in the fridge b4 smoking actually, I think that is what DanMcG says he does I have also done that on occasion too, in this particular situation we were discussing the use ECA (encapsulated citric acid), which is supposed to break open its capsule at around 130 degrees to do it's magic, if it breaks open b4 it is supposed to it can make the meat mushy and have a really sour flavor from being exposed to too much citric acid for too long of a period.

the general rules for  ECA are, too mix in to the meat by hand last after all other spices and liquids have been added  and mixed , right b4 you stuff it so as not to rupture the capsules, They also say not to add it to  any liquids as the capsule will melt and not to let it sit in the refrigerator as the longer contact with meat can dissolve the capsule

 

[smokinjoe52]

So from what I have read about using ECA in a beef stick:

Mix, stuff and smoke...but they may not be firm enough.

Mix stuff refrigerate for 24 hours, then smoke...but then the ECA may release and turn the product way less than desirable.

SO...

I am going to mix and stuff then refrigerate for 24 hours BUT I am going to forget the ECA for now.  Since I just tossed 5 lbs of grey slime, I am a little concerned about doing that again.

Maybe the time after I will try ECA without the 24 hours and see if they are firm enough for me.  I don't mind experimenting, but need a beef stick success story right now. 

Smokinjoe