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Dried Cured Pork Tenderloin question.

Jabiru

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I have some pork fillets curing, I used Prague #1. Normally I cold smoke, wrap over night and hot smoke until internal of 145f. Eat.

This time I would like to cold smoke only, then put in umai bag to dry for a couple of weeks, slice thin and eat.

I am confused, do I still need to cook?

Should I have used Prague #2.

I have never have just cold smoked, is there an amount of cold smoking time I need to stick to?

Any ideas?
 

thirdeye

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It sounds like you should have used Cure #2, but could you post the recipe along with the instructions you started with?

Generally, Cure #1 is used when the end product is cooked. And even when something is cold smoked, for example bacon, it still must be cooked before eating.

Generally, Cure #2 is used when the end product is not cooked. A good example would be salami.
 

Jabiru

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Thanks thirdeye thirdeye , that explained it perfectly mate. Its just the normal salt, cure #1 and sugar brine I have done 100 times - all cooked.

I thought as they are quite thin they would dry quick so cure #1 would suffice, but I see what you are saying, maybe I will cook this batch and use cure #2 on the next lot..

Completely different topic: One thing which I am confused about is when dry aging a muscle like Steak they dont use any cure, how does that stay safe?
 

thirdeye

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Basically, dry aging correctly is a procedure under very controlled circumstances. The cold rooms are as free of bacteria as possible, they have humidity controls and air circulation control. The meat surface may see some discoloration or mold of sorts, but the muscle itself does not spoil.
 

SmokinEdge

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This time I would like to cold smoke only, then put in umai bag to dry for a couple of weeks, slice thin and eat.
If using Umai bag and drying at refrigerator temperature, there is debate as to weather nitrate (NaNo3) should be used at all.

Cure #1 contains 6.25% nitrite.
Cure #2 contains 6.25% nitrite and 1.00% NITRATE
Nitrite (NaNo2) cures Meat directly and works very well at refrigerator temperature ( below 40*F)
However, Nitrate (NaNo3) does not cure meat directly. The nitrate must be reduced to nitrite by micrococci and lactobacilli bacteria. These bacteria become dormant at temperatures below 40*F (refrigerator) if these bacteria are not in the meat in sufficient number, or the temperature is to low, the conversion from NaNo3 into NaNo2 cannot be competed. Typically long term meat curing/drying is done between 50-59*F where the bacteria are active and will convert nitrate to nitrite, in the refrigerator not so much.

As long as you are using Umai bags and are drying in a temp below 40*F I would suggest using Cure #1, a minimum of 2% salt and dry until the meat loses a minimum of 30% of its green weight 40% would be better. No cooking required. The drying process (lowering Aw) is what makes the meat safe. If not drying to a minimum 30% weight loss (dry aging) then cook the meat to internal temp of minimum 145*F before eating.
 

chef jimmyj

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SmokinEdge, your keen observation that Cure #2 is useless below 40°F is excellent. Ill take this even further. I'm having a difficult time wondering why Intact Meat, drying under Refrigeration, needs Nitrite/Nitrate Cure at all.
For generations and to the present, Italian Coppa, Prosciutto, Lonzino and others, as well as American Country Hams, have been cured with Salt, Sugar and Spices Only. They are refrigerated for the initial cure time, around 90 days, then left to dry at higher temps even during the heat of Summer.
Regarding Umai Bags and Collagen Wraps, seems to me, even if the Umai Bags or Collagen Wraps are Oxygen Free...The meat is below a temp C Bot, or other Bacteria will multiply. Again why would Cure #1 or2 be needed? Once the drying time and weight reduction is complete, the surface dryness and salt content are inhospitable to Bacterial growth, even at Room Temp. Am I missing something here?...JJ
 

SmokinEdge

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I totally agree Chef JJ.
Under refrigeration with salt is all that is needed. I would only say that curing salt is cheap, it does provide another layer of protection so why not use it? Besides that beautiful pink color of the final product is sure easy on the eyes.
 

chef jimmyj

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I agree on the color and that technically it can't hurt but I would love to see a Side by Side comparison for flavor.
I know one benefit, with Fatty Meats like Coppa Cure #1/2 helps keep the Fat from going Rancid. However, I have to think that with Whole Muscle, if Cure was a great advantage or necessary, the Salt only guys would have adopted it's use in last few decades...JJ
 

Jabiru

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The fillets are cured, cold smoking the pork fillets today, probably give them 8 hours. Then into umai bags for a while until they drop 30% in weight. I reckon with cure #1 it should be ok as they are thin and should dry quite quickly.

I think I will use the Charcuterie bags on this batch.

Bag1.jpg


bag2.jpg
 

SmokinEdge

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The fillets are cured, cold smoking the pork fillets today, probably give them 8 hours. Then into umai bags for a while until they drop 30% in weight. I reckon with cure #1 it should be ok as they are thin and should dry quite quickly.

I think I will use the Charcuterie bags on this batch.

View attachment 505046

View attachment 505047
Will be waiting for the finale.
 

Jabiru

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SmokinEdge SmokinEdge it turned into a nightmare mate. I am p*ssed.
The damn bags would not seal or vacumn correctly, tried two Vacumn sealer machines. They are so wide I had to cut the edges of the bag and seal to make narrow enough to fit, then they would not vacumn now matter what I tried. Very painful to use.
The instructions say if you cant get them to vacumn take them to a Butcher and use their machine.. What the hell.

Anyway, I am now hot smoking them to 150F internal. I will try find some bags which actually work and give it a go again sometime.

Edit: After getting the smoker up to temp and the meat in there I found this video... I need a beer.

 

chef jimmyj

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Get The Sausage Maker Collagen Sheets. Same cure procedure but tightly wrap in Collagen Sheets and Refrigerate to the desired weight loss...JJ

 

Jabiru

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Thanks chef jimmyj chef jimmyj , they look the goods! I will definitely use them next. The sheets sound perfect for the pork fillets are they are small and the drying bags are massive.

And also "take smoke" it says on that website. Does that mean you cure your meat, wash, dry, wrap in collagen sheet, cold smoke then pop in fridge until 30% weight loss.

I just found this product "Dry aging Vacmouse strips" . They aid in air extraction and create a better seal, but, stuff those bags I am going with the your suggestion - collagen sheets.
 

chef jimmyj

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I've yet to try the wraps and have just a general understanding of how they work. indaswamp indaswamp told me about the wraps and can give better info...JJ
 

SmokinEdge

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SmokinEdge SmokinEdge it turned into a nightmare mate. I am p*ssed.
The damn bags would not seal or vacumn correctly, tried two Vacumn sealer machines. They are so wide I had to cut the edges of the bag and seal to make narrow enough to fit, then they would not vacumn now matter what I tried. Very painful to use.
The instructions say if you cant get them to vacumn take them to a Butcher and use their machine.. What the hell.

Anyway, I am now hot smoking them to 150F internal. I will try find some bags which actually work and give it a go again sometime.

Edit: After getting the smoker up to temp and the meat in there I found this video... I need a beer.

If you weren’t using the vac mouse then yes, it would be frustrating. That’s why vacuum bags have a texture on one side. That aids in air extraction and is what the vac mouse does when the bag has both side smooth. Also, you can fully submerge the bagged meat in a container of water, keeping the opening above the water. This will push the air out of the bag. You may have to work the sides with a free hand, then zip tie the bag closed as tight to the meat as possible and remove from water, dry off and refrigerate.

The sheets work the same, I use them occasionally. Make sure the meat is slightly damp, or tacky on the surface then apply the sheet being careful not to get any air pockets and leave nothing uncovered, and refrigerate. Make sure you get a green weight at the beginning and write that down or tag the meat. Then you follow along with weight loss.
 

chopsaw

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Been silently following along . I'll just throw this in the FWIW column .
This was an experiment I did awhile back . I had some 50 mm Umai casings . I cut two sections to length , then ripped down one side to open them up .
I laid them on top of each other and sealed 3 sides , forming a bag . Made 2 bags .
Cut a pork tenderloin in half and followed Umai directions for dry cured . Used cure 2 .
Like said above the bags would not vac and seal . So I wrapped the bags around tight and covered with netting .
Weighed and into the fridge . Was a slow go . Seemed to take forever to start losing weight . I pulled the first one at 30 % . Not even close . Smelled great . weird texture , almost like jello .
So , the one I had left I figured I was just gonna let it go . Ended up at almost 50% loss . Here's how it came out .
Before fridge .
20190331_203124.jpg
These are all after weight loss .
20190430_094732.jpg
20190430_094809.jpg
20190430_094853.jpg
20190430_095449.jpg 20190430_095456.jpg
Smelled great , texture seemed right , I was afraid to eat it .
Nothing about this was off putting , I just let my worry get the best of me .
Probably the best dry cured Tenderloin I never ate !
Like I said FWIW .
 

daveomak

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The nitrate in cure#2 is a safety factor to eliminate botulism when the meat is held at non-refrigerated temperatures....
As far as I know, botulism spores are not killed by any of the process and can actively develop into the bacteria when adequate conditions develop like, eating the meat and moisture and temperature in the gut come in contact with them...
 

chef jimmyj

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Probably the best dry cured Tenderloin I never ate !
Cured and Refrigerated start to finish? It would be fine.


and can actively develop into the bacteria when adequate conditions develop like, eating the meat and moisture and temperature in the gut come in contact with them...
Morning Dave, Yes and No... The Stomach pH is too Low for C Botulinum Spores to activate and multiply in Adults. For reasons not completely understood, they sometimes can activate in the stomach of some Babies. This is why there is a recommendations to not feed Honey to Babies...JJ
Courtesy of the CDC...

The spores usually do not cause people to become sick, even when they’re eaten. But under certain conditions, these spores can grow and make one of the most lethal toxins known. The conditions in which the spores can grow and make toxin are:

  • Low-oxygen or no oxygen (anaerobic) environment
  • Low acid
  • Low sugar
  • Low salt
  • A certain temperature range
  • A certain amount of water
 

daveomak

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pH in the intestinal tract can range between 5.5 to 7.5....
In the stomach, several factors can raise the pH... Just as some have noted, "drinking a glass of orange juice can lower the stomach pH to have a detrimental effect on the "bad" bacteria one may ingest"... BTW, I have used that remedy when some food I ate caused severe discomfort, and it worked almost immediately...



By
Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.
Updated February 21, 2020

Your stomach secretes hydrochloric acid, but the pH of your stomach isn't necessarily the same as the pH of the acid.

The pH of your stomach varies, but its natural state is between 1.5 and 3.5.1 This level rises when food enters the stomach; it can reach up to six, but it lowers again throughout digestion as stomach acid is secreted.

1626962646802.png




The bacteria that make botulinum toxin are found naturally in many places, but it’s rare for them to make people sick. These bacteria make spores, which act like protective coatings. Spores help the bacteria survive in the environment, even in extreme conditions. The spores usually do not cause people to become sick, even when they’re eaten. But under certain conditions, these spores can grow and make one of the most lethal toxins known.


Luminal pH in normal small bowel and colon
Gastrointestinal luminal pH data recorded by RTC in normal volunteers are shown in table 1. Luminal pH in the proximal small bowel ranges from 5.5 to 7.0 and gradually rises to 6.5–7.5 in the distal ileum. In almost every recording published there has been a fall in luminal pH from the terminal ileum to the caecum (range 5.5–7.5); pH then rises in the left colon and rectum to 6.1–7.5.


Clostridium botulinum can grow and form toxin at pH values lower than 4.6
G J Raatjes, J P Smelt


Abstract
It is generally accepted that in Clostridium botulinum both growth and toxin formation are completely inhibited at pH values below 4.6. This critical pH value has been confirmed by many investigators using food as substrate or culture media. Occasionally growth of C. botulinum and toxin formation at pH values lower than 4.6 have been reported. In these cases the authors ascribed the unexpected outgrowth and toxin formation to local pH differences in inhomogeneous media and growth of C. botulinum before pH equilibration, or to the fact that fungi created microenvironments within or adjacent to the mycelial mat, where the pH was higher than 4.6 as was demonstrated by Odlaug and Pflug. We show here that the general assumption that C. botulinum does not grow below pH 4.6 is incorrect. We have observed that growth and toxin formation by C. botulinum can take place in homogeneous protein rich substrates (containing 3% or more soya or milk protein) at pH values lower than 4.6.


The interaction of factors may have a positive or negative effect on the inhibition of C. botulinum. In general, proteolytic strains grow optimally at 40°C; the lower limit is 10°C, upper limit is 45-50°C. Nonproteolytic strains, including type E can continue to grow even at 3.3°C. The minimum pH range for growth of proteolytic strains is 4.6-4.8; the limit is pH 5.0 for nonproteolytic strains. However, some food proteins, such as soy and beef, may have a protective effect on C. botulinum at or below pH 4.6. In addition, certain food preparations may contain low-acid “pockets” in which the pH may be high enough to support the production of toxin.


Canning is not the only condition in the manufacture and preservation of foods in which anaerobic conditions can develop. Smoked fish can develop anaerobic conditions in the visceral cavity and under the skin. The interior of sausage also may become anaerobic during the preservation process. Anaerobic conditions capable of supporting the growth of C. botulinum also have developed in such foods as chopped garlic in oil, foil-wrapped baked potatoes, roasted chili peppers in plastic bags, canned cheese sauce, sauteed onions, turkey loaves, meat stews and pot pies left at room temperature or in a warming oven overnight. In these cases the original baking killed competing organisms and eliminated much of the oxygen in the micro-environment under the crust, foil or buttery coating. Subsequent storage at warm temperatures created an ideal environment for the germination and growth of botulinum spores. For these types of foods, growth of Clostridium botulinum is inhibited by storage at a low temperature (below 38 degrees F) and/or the use of a preservative, such as sodium nitrite.
 

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