Comparison of Pork Butt done 2 ways

[GaryHibbert]

So low and slow has no benefit? Why have we been encouraged to smoke low and slow in the first place?
Common sense tells me that the internal temp is most important and that it shouldn't matter how it gets there, so why do pit masters in competition go low and slow? Seems like they could use a little extra time getting their meats ready for the judges as they always seem to be running out of time at the end of their cooks and that's where mistakes are made in desperation.

Randy,

I don't know about low & slow having no benefit Randy. I would think that cooking a tenderloin or even a loin hot & fast wouldn't produce nearly as tender meat as low & slow. Also, a fast cook time on a cut of meat that cooks quickly (even at low & slow) would have way to little time in the smoke. And I like LOTS of smoke.

Gary

 

[GaryHibbert]

Great comparison!! Myself, I am a hot and fast cook, so far everything comes out tasting the same and in way less time!

Points to you!!  :points:

I have to agree with you. But. As I said, time is seldom a factor with me. The actual quality time spent in the back yard talking with Miss Linda,my hound at my feet, and a cold boottle of Prohibition beer in my hand is, to me, a huge part of the pleasure I get from smoking.

I appreciate the point.

Gary

 

[GaryHibbert]

IN MY OPINION...
Cooking (smoking) meat at any temp under 350°F is low to me, and by no means do I consider eight or more hours cooking anything to be "fast"...

Using conventional oven time and temp recommendations as a standard even "hot and fast" is "low and slow" by comparison.
Slow cooker or crock pot recipe cook times are usually in the 4-10 hour range...I think "low and slow" is subjective.

Also, with growing popularity, our hobby is evolving and new or different techniques are being used and perfected more frequently.
The "hotter and faster" guys just pushed the boundaries of low and slow and have expanded those parameters.
Just my opinion and 2¢...

Walt

Yes smoking is evolving Walt. But new ideas are not necessarily better. They're simply that--a new, different method of achieving basically the same result.

Some people just prefer the old, more relaxed way of doing things. A motor boat will get you to your destination a lot faster than a sailboat, but judging from the number of sailboats out there, there's a whole lot of people who simply aren't in that big a hurry to get there.

There's an old saying "Its the journey, not the destination." That applies to smoking as well and accounts for a lot of us Low & Slow types.

Gary

 

[jokensmoken]

Absolutely, I'm not advocating either as being right or wrong, just offering an explanation, IMO, why more folks are advocating a little hotter and faster.
I've always been a low and slow guy and still am on everything except butts and chicken and my butt technique only changed recently.
I'll be the first to agree with you, most of the fun and fascination for smoking was learning to do it...I've learned to make top notch Q, again IMHO, on everything; a gas grill a kettle grill an ECB, WSM or an MES...I've got a UDS I'm building for hunt camp where I've currently got my old stick burning okie Joe and my most recent purchase was a MB 40XL propane...could say I'm slightly addicted to my hobby...lol...
And now the enjoyment IS simply sitting around the smoker with a couple adult beverages relaxing
BUT, as far as relaxing goes; learning how to turn an average 12-14 hour cook time on a 10lb butt into a 10 hour process without sacrificing quality simply by adjusting my vents to run at 280° instead of 230° didn't detract from the relaxation aspect, makes it a little less hectic which, for me, makes it even more enjoyable...no more 2:00 am start times for a late afternoon PP dinner...if you're into that cool...I still enjoy the occasional all nighter with a few close friends tending the smoker and drinking a few beers...just not every time, it's just nice to know I've got options.

Walt.

 

[GaryHibbert]

Absolutely, I'm not advocating either as being right or wrong, just offering an explanation, IMO, why more folks are advocating a little hotter and faster.
I've always been a low and slow guy and still am on everything except butts and chicken and my butt technique only changed recently.
I'll be the first to agree with you, most of the fun and fascination for smoking was learning to do it...I've learned to make top notch Q, again IMHO, on everything; a gas grill a kettle grill an ECB, WSM or an MES...I've got a UDS I'm building for hunt camp where I've currently got my old stick burning okie Joe and my most recent purchase was a MB 40XL propane...could say I'm slightly addicted to my hobby...lol...
And now the enjoyment IS simply sitting around the smoker with a couple adult beverages relaxing
BUT, as far as relaxing goes; learning how to turn an average 12-14 hour cook time on a 10lb butt into a 10 hour process without sacrificing quality simply by adjusting my vents to run at 280° instead of 230° didn't detract from the relaxation aspect, makes it a little less hectic which, for me, makes it even more enjoyable...no more 2:00 am start times for a late afternoon PP dinner...if you're into that cool...I still enjoy the occasional all nighter with a few close friends tending the smoker and drinking a few beers...just not every time, it's just nice to know I've got options.

Walt.

Well said Walt.

Gary

 

[remsr]

Hi Gary!
Thouse were my thoughts as well, but I wanted to hear it from someone else. I also think thare are two schools of thought concerning temperatures and that the temp that really matters is the internal temp. Al says it don't matter how you get there, but does it? The first thing I learned about smoking when I started many years ago is patients because it's a low and slow process. But I still find myself on the fence about this. I have a Holland grill that is an indirect grill with no heat control knob that cooks by time at about 400 degrees. It basically works like an outdoor oven. I have cooked the same things that I now smoke low and slow in my WSM and my MES including tenderloin that comes out great at 400 degrees. But still I believe low and slow has it's benefits. Maybe I'm going over to top but I smoke my brisket at 200° and it consistently comes out tender juicy, smoky and tasty every single time I don't think I want to mess with that method as I have over the years messed up quite a few briskets before I found something that actually works.

Randy,

 

[noboundaries]

The history of Q is a great companion to Gary's low n slow/hot n fast comparison. 

Before the age of manufactured smokers and electronic timers, cavemen most likely discovered the difference in meat cooked directly over a hot fire, and the tender, fall-off-the-bone meat of animals scavenged after a forest fire.  After a few grunts, they most likely experimented with ways to mimic the difference.  Protect the meat, bury it, build a fire on top of the pit, and forget about it for a day or two most likely morphed into low n slow.  I'll bet they indulged in a lot of fermented berries and inappropriate grunts to pass the time until the meat was dug up.  Indigenous peoples have been concocting various methods of low n slow indirect heating ever since to make tough, inedible cuts of game tender and juicy.  Their methods eventually turned into ovens, smokers, grills, and barbeques. 

Having personally done both low n slow, hot n fast, and now a combination of the two, the main advantage of low n slow is the window of time when the meat is finished.  That window is smaller with hot n fast, much larger with low n slow. Its all about the physics of heat transfer.  The larger the difference in temp between the meat and the smoker/oven/cooker/whatever, the faster the heat transfer to the meat.  The smaller the difference, the slower the heat transfer.  Anyone who has smoked a butt low n slow, at 210-225F, knows it can take two or three hours or more for a butt to go from an IT of 195 to 205F.  Hot n fast, say 300F, it can bridge that time in an hour or less.  The meat goes through the exact same breakdown process whether low n slow or hot n fast, but without an electronic thermometer, you have a better chance of catching the perfect doneness when cooking low n slow due to the larger window of time.  The key is not to get impatient. 

Personally, whether smoking butts or brisket, I smoke low n slow until the stall is finished, then crank my smoker up to hot n fast to finish.  Why?  Because I haven't mastered being patient.  In the process, I maximize smoke exposure, get great bark, and can better control the time the meat is finished to probe tender.  Fermented berries, hops, and inappropriate grunts are still great companions while waiting for the meat to exit the heat.               

 

[GaryHibbert]

Hi Gary!
Thouse were my thoughts as well, but I wanted to hear it from someone else. I also think thare are two schools of thought concerning temperatures and that the temp that really matters is the internal temp. Al says it don't matter how you get there, but does it? The first thing I learned about smoking when I started many years ago is patients because it's a low and slow process. But I still find myself on the fence about this. I have a Holland grill that is an indirect grill with no heat control knob that cooks by time at about 400 degrees. It basically works like an outdoor oven. I have cooked the same things that I now smoke low and slow in my WSM and my MES including tenderloin that comes out great at 400 degrees. But still I believe low and slow has it's benefits. Maybe I'm going over to top but I smoke my brisket at 200° and it consistently comes out tender juicy, smoky and tasty every single time I don't think I want to mess with that method as I have over the years messed up quite a few briskets before I found something that actually works.

Randy,

I cant argue with s thing you said Randy. IT is what really matters. But what I really like about low and slow is the longer exposure to smoke while cooking.

I know that if I'm cooking a pork tenderloin or skinless boneless chicken breasts and thighs in the oven I set the oven at 400 for 35 to 40 minutes. Everything comes out tender and juicy.

Gary

 

[GaryHibbert]

Sorry must have hit submit twice.

Gary

 

[GaryHibbert]

The history of Q is a great companion to Gary's low n slow/hot n fast comparison. 

Before the age of manufactured smokers and electronic timers, cavemen most likely discovered the difference in meat cooked directly over a hot fire, and the tender, fall-off-the-bone meat of animals scavenged after a forest fire.  After a few grunts, they most likely experimented with ways to mimic the difference.  Protect the meat, bury it, build a fire on top of the pit, and forget about it for a day or two most likely morphed into low n slow.  I'll bet they indulged in a lot of fermented berries and inappropriate grunts to pass the time until the meat was dug up.  Indigenous peoples have been concocting various methods of low n slow indirect heating ever since to make tough, inedible cuts of game tender and juicy.  Their methods eventually turned into ovens, smokers, grills, and barbeques. 

Having personally done both low n slow, hot n fast, and now a combination of the two, the main advantage of low n slow is the window of time when the meat is finished.  That window is smaller with hot n fast, much larger with low n slow. Its all about the physics of heat transfer.  The larger the difference in temp between the meat and the smoker/oven/cooker/whatever, the faster the heat transfer to the meat.  The smaller the difference, the slower the heat transfer.  Anyone who has smoked a butt low n slow, at 210-225F, knows it can take two or three hours or more for a butt to go from an IT of 195 to 205F.  Hot n fast, say 300F, it can bridge that time in an hour or less.  The meat goes through the exact same breakdown process whether low n slow or hot n fast, but without an electronic thermometer, you have a better chance of catching the perfect doneness when cooking low n slow due to the larger window of time.  The key is not to get impatient. 

Personally, whether smoking butts or brisket, I smoke low n slow until the stall is finished, then crank my smoker up to hot n fast to finish.  Why?  Because I haven't mastered being patient.  In the process, I maximize smoke exposure, get great bark, and can better control the time the meat is finished to probe tender.  Fermented berries, hops, and inappropriate grunts are still great companions while waiting for the meat to exit the heat.               

What a great job on THE HISTORY OF Q!!! I was rolling on the floor over the part about fermented berries and inappropriate grunts.

Personally I think you nailed it with your combination of methods for large chunks of meat I do still believe there are great advantages in smoking smaller, faster cooking cuts low and slow.

Gary

 

[remsr]

I'm with you Gary and I'm not going to give it any more thought. low and slow it is for me. I have been retired for 13 years and I am not in a hurry to do anything.

Randy,

 

[sqwib]

Another consideration is the type of Pit/Smoker/Grill being used.

On my GOSM the preferred way to do a butt would be a low and slow, (250°) approach, why? Because running the GOSM at higher heat blows through the wood chunks and gives too much smoke and I just like a kiss of smoke. Could I adjust the wood to burn less quicker? Yes, but I don't want to Mod my smoker when it works perfectly for everything else. Regardless, Butts are done on my Pit so its a moot point for me.

On my pit I try to stay above 250° and hoover around 275°+, Why? Is it I don't like long cooks? No, because to me its kinda silly to cook something for 24 hours instead of 10-12 hours, more can go wrong in that time span. I also find it easier to maintain these temps and its less stressful.

Is there a difference in final product? Absolutely not, the only difference is in time and dedicating 24 hours to a cook is definitely not my idea of relaxing.

Sorry but I cringe when I see someone toss on a 10+ pound butt and strive for 225°, then ask about the Danger zone... its just not necessary, preferred? Maybe, but not necessary.

But I say, "smoke however you like", there is no wrong way, unless of course your keeping your temps below 200°, some folks drive 65mph in a 55 mph zone and some drive 55 in that same zone, but we all get to where were going, some a bit quicker than others.

My only advice I can offer about Low and Slow, (and BTW I still consider 275°+ low and slow) is to please, please, at least get those temps up a bit in the beginning of the cook until you are sure to get past the danger zone safely, after that... it's all good.

 

[jokensmoken]

Very enjoyable read...love it.
I also combine techniques and have for awhile...withput proof or conformation, my thoughts always paralleled yours.
Once I get to the stall going low and slow I've accomplished the smoking part of the process and sealed the meat to prevent moisture loss, so tben it's a matter of achieving the temperature to give or meat that magic melt in your mouth tenderness we all strive for...
So up goes the temps...

Walt

 

[GaryHibbert]

Very enjoyable read...love it.
I also combine techniques and have for awhile...withput proof or conformation, my thoughts always paralleled yours.
Once I get to the stall going low and slow I've accomplished the smoking part of the process and sealed the meat to prevent moisture loss, so tben it's a matter of achieving the temperature to give or meat that magic melt in your mouth tenderness we all strive for...
So up goes the temps...

Walt

Walt, I'll be doing almost exactly the same thing from now on. The only difference being that I'll be foiling at the stall--then I'll crank the heat right ùp. Of course, with my MES, the cranked up temp will still max out at only 265. LOL.

Gary

 

[3montes]

My technique for butts anyway is a hybrid for lack of a better term and it has worked extremely well. I didn't develop this technique purposefully really it just evolved. My stick burner as most do will hold a pretty even temp but will fluctuate some during the smoke due to conditions. Breeze picks up and I get a spike of 15 degrees lets say. I don't worry about it just I let it ride. I get tied up on the phone and the temp drops 20 degrees because I didn't add a split when I needed to. No big deal. I just look for something around 250. I'm not a subscriber to the "if you're looking you ain't cooking" philosophy. This maybe is due to I have cabinet doors on my cooker and I honestly do not lose that much heat when I open them I open them to spritz once a hour or so and I also open them to rotate the butts once during the cook. My theory is when you have the one large door with the counterweight that swings upward the large mass of the door swinging upwards creates a vacuum that pulls all the smoke and heat with it. Watch sometime when someone opens a door like that and see how the smoke follows it upwards and out. Cabinet doors don't do this. If I open mine slowly enough I can actually watch the smoke travel through the chamber undisturbed.

It's all about internal temp at different stages of the cook. I get them to 165 and then pan them but I don't cover. I don't pan them to avoid the stall I pan them to catch all the juices. To be honest I don't remember having to deal with a stall for a long time. In addition when I pan them I add a bottle of dark beer to the bottom of the pan. I may be braising them slightly this way which is why I'm not seeing the stall but because they are not covered the braising effect is minimum, And the flavor the dark beer adds to the final product is a bonus.

Once I reach the target temp which for me is 200 or above they come off the smoker. Now they get covered in foil and placed in the Cambro food keepers to continue to cook and stay warm. I actually keep them in there overnight. I don't pull until the next day. I wouldn't try this without a Cambro or similar quality food keeper your standard coolers aren't going to keep them this long.

The next morning when I pull them out they are often almost still to hot to handle. But I tell you what you don't have to handle them much anyhow as they almost pull themselves!

My butts are usually done in the 10 to 11 hour range. They run between 8 and 10lbs each and i have never halved them. Minimal trimming is all I've ever done.

So I'm not hot and fast or low and slow you could say and i don't foil but I do kinda. I guess i just don't like to think about things too hard!

 

[natej]

Excellent thread my friend..enjoyed the read thoroughly and those are some fine lookin butts!! i have been pondering for quite some time the difference in the final product when cooked low vs hot, the only discernable difference ive found (apart from cook time) is the rate at which the meat darkens and texture of bark.. tenderness, moisture level and flavor have been the same.

Point

 

[GaryHibbert]

My technique for butts anyway is a hybrid for lack of a better term and it has worked extremely well. I didn't develop this technique purposefully really it just evolved. My stick burner as most do will hold a pretty even temp but will fluctuate some during the smoke due to conditions. Breeze picks up and I get a spike of 15 degrees lets say. I don't worry about it just I let it ride. I get tied up on the phone and the temp drops 20 degrees because I didn't add a split when I needed to. No big deal. I just look for something around 250. I'm not a subscriber to the "if you're looking you ain't cooking" philosophy. This maybe is due to I have cabinet doors on my cooker and I honestly do not lose that much heat when I open them I open them to spritz once a hour or so and I also open them to rotate the butts once during the cook. My theory is when you have the one large door with the counterweight that swings upward the large mass of the door swinging upwards creates a vacuum that pulls all the smoke and heat with it. Watch sometime when someone opens a door like that and see how the smoke follows it upwards and out. Cabinet doors don't do this. If I open mine slowly enough I can actually watch the smoke travel through the chamber undisturbed.

It's all about internal temp at different stages of the cook. I get them to 165 and then pan them but I don't cover. I don't pan them to avoid the stall I pan them to catch all the juices. To be honest I don't remember having to deal with a stall for a long time. In addition when I pan them I add a bottle of dark beer to the bottom of the pan. I may be braising them slightly this way which is why I'm not seeing the stall but because they are not covered the braising effect is minimum, And the flavor the dark beer adds to the final product is a bonus.

Once I reach the target temp which for me is 200 or above they come off the smoker. Now they get covered in foil and placed in the Cambro food keepers to continue to cook and stay warm. I actually keep them in there overnight. I don't pull until the next day. I wouldn't try this without a Cambro or similar quality food keeper your standard coolers aren't going to keep them this long.
The next morning when I pull them out they are often almost still to hot to handle. But I tell you what you don't have to handle them much anyhow as they almost pull themselves!

My butts are usually done in the 10 to 11 hour range. They run between 8 and 10lbs each and i have never halved them. Minimal trimming is all I've ever done.
So I'm not hot and fast or low and slow you could say and i don't foil but I do kinda. I guess i just don't like to think about things too hard!:cheers: :biggrin:

As this thread progresses I see more and more people using a combination of the two methods. Picking what to them are the best aspects of each and taylor making their own personal style.

I don't pan but I do foil at the stall too cat the juices which I add to the PP.

Gary

 

[GaryHibbert]

Excellent thread my friend..enjoyed the read thoroughly and those are some fine lookin butts!! i have been pondering for quite some time the difference in the final product when cooked low vs hot, the only discernable difference ive found (apart from cook time) is the rate at which the meat darkens and texture of bark.. tenderness, moisture level and flavor have been the same.

Point

Thanks Nate. That's the same conclusion I've arrived at too. So my future butts wiil all be smoked in a mix of low & slow and hot& fast.

I appreciate the point.

Gary

 

[801driver]

As usual, I am late to the party and saw this post just now, but I do not think many here will mind me taking this excellent thread by GaryHibbert back up to the top again for those who originally missed it like I did. It might make a good stickie, it is so important as basic information for new and even us older smokers to consider. I have been a 225' guy for 50 years.

I had just purchased a Smoke-it brand #2 electric several years back when I got tired of the 20 hour watch with a combination charcoal wood burner. My Smoke-it #2 had the standard kitchen oven type on/off control just when the great debate of the digital PID controllers hit the scene.

I am an old guy, came out of the process control industry, and yes if you throw enough $ in with high tech equipment, you can hold a pretty constant temp in one sensor spot of +or- with just a very little deviance. I made my living providing and installing that type of equipment. I most likely had enough junk stuff left over after retiring in the barn to build one, but did not take the time.

Me, thinking about temp controlling my previous smokes on my manual control wood smoker in between beers, and then my Mom while growing up cooking everything from roasts to cakes in the low tech on/off control oven in the kitchen. I just could not get overly excited about my electric smoker having 20' or so temp swings with the on/off controller over a 20 hour time frame. I actually got blasted a few times for posting my thoughts and opinions in more than one place.

THE MOST IMPORTANT change in my smokes came from finding this web site. Finally getting it through my head that tough meat is not caused by overcooking and drying it out. I was under cooking most everything by trying to smoke by time. Big mistake. INTERNAL TEMPERATURE of the meat is the only thing that matters, period. Along with letting big chunks rest in a cooler before slicing or pulling.

Yes, I can agree my electric smokes might be only 90-95% as good as my stick burner in some ways, not wanting to start that debate, but it sure is convenient, especially in cold WX overnight.

Now, here we are after four or five years of several hundreds of smokes with my Smoke-it #2 and I am starting to see a little larger temp swings, might be heading for a component failure. I could most likely open it up and use some electronic spray lube on the controller, but I have to open it up to get to it. For $25 I can totally replace the "entire temp control system" with a new one while I am in there. (I just ordered a few minutes ago) Also, living in the country, so far voltage spikes and moisture have not bothered my "controller." (No electronics) and I am happy with that also.

Just my experiences and my opinions posted here, like everything with smoking, yours may vary, but the basics are still the same.

I plan to "dial it up" and try that approach. Might even fire up the stick burner again for a few smokes. Thanks again Gary.