Temp. Probe Contamination !?!?

[bbally]

Correct, but the cooking time coming through the danger zone counts as in the danger zone. "In process" is not an exception to the time constraint.

 

[chefrob]

you are right, i never think the food code is idiot proof........i've seen those "better idiots" in the field.

 

[chefrob]

but you can do these things as long as you follow the 4 hr rule....

 

[chefrob]

i'm sure you aren't quoting me (correct me if i am wrong) but since i used that exact phrase i need to explain why i did. i have seen the danger zone temps change lower and then up and then down again. this may have happened on a local level or on a national level but never the less it has happened and approved by some form of government. do i trust them more than myself where my food should be on temps....absolutely not. i like the temps i've established for my use and will continue to use them. is this ego.........those who know me know better. when it comes down to it i am i trained professional and have been doing this for years, some of you are not and that is why i try to be carefull of what i say so not to mislead anyone.

one more note on trusting the govt.
who here is japanese-american...............

 

[bbally]

Was not quoting you. Like you, I have been cooking professionally for 32 years. I take food safety seriously because it is important.

My point is poo pooing the government is easy to do (see Emeril comment), but food science comes from research and findings from real people being sick or killed.

I agree the foodcode does change, all good science continues to adapt to techniques, technology, and research findings.

 

[chefrob]

i didn't think you were.......

it is easy to crap on the govt. and most do with out knowledge and with malice....

also lobyist have found ways to change it....for the worst.

it is people like you and me (in the industry) who need to keep our food safe..........and sound.

 

[meateater]

WOW! All this is giving me a headache and taking away from my smoking time. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing, keep your meat fresh and cool and your probe clean.

 

[john3198]

Bob - please clarify one small piece related to this discussion.

If I am cooking say a pirme rib roast and I want to take it to only 120-130F for rare, I should not probe until the exterior is 140 or greater, correct? Since it will take a couple of hours to cook, waiting is not an issue.

Similar issue with a steak. Don't probe at the beginning but wait until external temps are up. Problem is, we may only be cooking that steak for 3-5 min/side (grilling, of course, not smoking). I suppose that If I grill one side then flip, I can insert the probe on the hot side. Correct?

 

[bbally]

Yes and yes

But remember a steak is going to be cooked and eaten immediately. So you will not face the problem of hours of time for bacteria to grow.

It is only when we get to long periods of time in the danger zone that colonizing bacteria can reach those critical levels to cause illness.

 

[john3198]

Thanks Bob for keeping us on solid ground here. I really appreciate the help.

 

[deltadude]

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadude
So as long as the cooking temp is 180º or greater even if it takes 8 hours to achieve a meats safe consumption temp that is ok. There is NO mention of clearing the danger zone in less than 4 hours if either the meat is ground (non-intact muscle) or intact, or probed / injected.

quote : bbally This is an incorrect assumption on foodcode.

The meat must move through the danger zone in four hours total. That includes prep time.

Also the assumption that food becomes safe when it hits a certain temperature is wrong.

The botulinum toxin is not destroyed in normal cooking temperatures. Cooking to any final temperature that would be edible at the end would still result in illness. ... end of bbally quote..

bbally, I have no issue with the accuracy of what you are saying as you are literally applying USDA code, and for the record I have deep respect for anyone with your knowledge and experience.

My statement is a conclusion base on the USDA recommendations from USDA see below. USDA is clearly saying you can insert probe at the start of cooking, and because there is no mention of the Danger Zone is clearly saying that the essential issue is the finished meat's temperature that it fall withing the USDA safe consumption guidelines. Further there is NO distinction of types of meat as in ground (non-intact muscle) and (intact muscle).

I understand the concept about bacteria growth and possible toxin release if meat is held in the danger zone too long. But apparently (without minimizing the serious danger of food poisoning), apparently the incidence is low enough that even the USDA will not make the effort to spell out the advice. The advice (if intact muscle is punctured or ground meat or blade tenderized meat is used, then the interior meat temp must be raised to 140º within 4 hours). Why is this important procedure left out? It would appear the real issue is cooking the meat to safe consumption temperatures will take care of 99% of the problems or else there would be at least an asterisk with a note?????????

Again I don't want anyone to take the above as objection, challenge or an effort to contradict bbally, but hopefully result is some references produced that clearly spell out the science which leads to a better understanding.

So the issue as it stands, is cooking/smoking meat to the USDA recommended safe consumption temps enough to deal with the majority of possible contamination issues if probes or injection needles are used either prior or at the beginning of a cook/smoke.
Or if probes or injection needles are used either prior or at the beginning of a cook/smoke if the meat does not achieve an internal temp of 140º in 4 hours or less, then; the meat must be considered contaminated and thrown away.

So far I haven't seen where the USDA spells out the second option. I do see the first option in many places.

The same info is given here in the comments on smoking

 

[deltadude]

The comments on USDA regulations and fact sheets are based on research and what is learned in the field science.

While that statement is relatively true, the USDA does not always follow the research or even best practices when it comes to enforcement/policy/regulations.

One of the biggest areas in meat production for contamination is ground meat, warning and recalls happen almost weekly. Yet USDA does not mandate that grinders test each load of meat shipped to them from the different packers they source the meat from. Why? It is political.

My only point in saying the above is USDA is subject to political influences and even some of the numbers they use could be refutable. 76 million cases of food related illness a year, but there only 300 K that went to the doctor. That is sort of like Obama's 3 million new jobs, and many were created in districts that don't even exist.

 

[ddave]

Well, not really. What they actually are saying is:

I could find no mention of them saying when to insert the probe.

Dave

 

[pignit]

Rick..... It's not ok. Here is the deal. You have uncompromised meat, and compromised meat. Each goes by a different set of rules. Compromised meat is meat that has been punctured, injected, marinated, brined in any way shape or form. Anything that introduces the outside to the inside. Period.
Uncompromised meat is exactly that. Uncompromised.
Knowing the basics is the first step in smokin great food and keeping it safe to eat. Doesn't hurt to be paranoid enough to find the answers to the things your unsure about. If your taking your meat to above 160 and you get it out of the danger zone in 4 hours or less you can stick that probe in your meat anytime you want to. I'm all about having fun smoking but when you start putting food you prepared in someone elses mouth, you have a responsibility in knowing you prepared that food in a safe manner. Little paranoia may be a good thing....
I don't. I think one of the things that stands out from most of the forum members is to hand out good advice on food safety. Not personal preferences or opinions, those are for the taste buds and for taste issues. When it comes to food safety there are defined general rules that should keep everybody safe. Stick to those rules and your odds of getting sick or making somebody sick sharing some of that hot pulled pork goes down dramatically.

 

[deltadude]

Its not that I don't believe, I just want to read it.

(I have reconsidered what I posted here) See more info below..

 

[deltadude]

I have come across this USDA document:
The USDA Kitchen Companion

All aspects of food safety is clearly defined and outlined in this single document for the home cook. Included are sections on slow cooking, BBQ and smoking (Pg 33, 34). Included is a complete discussion on the use of thermometers. (I think this document should be the SMF reference for USDA recommendations, since that is exactly what it was written for us the home kitchen cook. Or at least one of SMF's official references.)

Procedures which are not discussed in the above document such as "waiting until 140º to insert thermometer probe", while it is certain may add an additional level of food safety, since even the USDA doesn't think that information is important enough to include in their own document, SMF gurus should refrain from insisting on a procedure when that procedure can't be referenced in any USDA home kitchen guide or fact sheet. (In addition see below, even USDA website section on thermometers and usage has no reference to such a procedure.

Note: It is assumed for sake of discussion that all USDA prescribed smoking/cooking recommendations are being followed, cooking temp 225º - 300º and cooking meat at least to the USDA minimum internal meat temperature or higher.

However in other areas on USDA website which discuss smoking and the use of a thermometer it is clear that the USDA understanding of thermometer use includes inserting the thermometer through an intact muscle at an early stage of the cook/smoke, and since there are no other sequence indicators it is easy to infer at the beginning of a cook/smoke. (I draw this inference from the two most (traditional) common uses of thermometers inserted in the meat (and remain there) during cooking, (turkey and roasts) which traditionally has been at the beginning of the cook.)
The same info is provided here on USDA "smoking meat & poultry" fact sheet.

USDA FAct Sheet on Thermometers
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets...eets/index.asp

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets...ters/index.asp


Contradictions ???? in USDA recommendations
In the USDA Kitchen Companion there is an apparent contradiction.
It seems according to USDA it is unsafe to cook meat in a kitchen oven below 325º.

This raises the question, if it is unsafe in a kitchen oven to cook meat below 325º how does it become magically safe to do so in a smoker?
It is evident from every USDA publication that given all other USDA recommendations are followed the most critical is cooking meat to the USDA minimum internal safe temperatures (yes there are exceptions). When comparing minimum oven cooking temps to minimum smoker temp the one constant is cook the meat to the minimum internal safe temp. USDA understands that meat in a smoker will take longer to cook, but there is no mention of the danger zone, why? There is no mention of time constraints (in fact the opposite is covered "up to 8 hours or longer to smoke meat"), the emphasis for safe smoking is monitor the cooking temp minimum 225º and make sure the meat's internal temp achieves the USDA min. safe temp.

If USDA is flexible enough to recognize that smoking meat is a centuries old tradition and people are not dropping dead, in spite of science saying the risk of being in the danger zone when low & slow smoking is used or in spite of their own minimum oven cooking temp, should SMF safety recommendations be more stringent than what USDA has published for the home or consumer cook?

Finally, while SMF should always attempt to attain a high food safety standard, it often appears there is an over emphasis on straining gnats and the camels are missed.

 

[bbally]

I believe we should stick with the foodcode. As this document is not up to date and was based on the 2006 code.



One of the reason not to use this document.

If we read the whole statement it indicates the problem associated with cooking at lower temperatures.

• USDA does not recommend cooking meat and poultry at oven temperatures lower than 325 °F. This can cause food to remain in the "Danger Zone" (temperatures from 40 to 140 °F) too long, allowing bacteria to multiply rapidly.

Which of course is what I was saying on "in process" time not mattering. The four hour rule always applies. You must have your therm/btu set up to get meat through the danger zone in the time period.

This is of course the 4 hour rule. This document also changes the real foodcode four hour rule into a two hour rule. This was added to the document because they wanted home owners to be safer. The two hour prep rule is not code.

These documents are based on the assumption that you have enough therm/btu to get the meat through the danger zone in under the four hour time limit.

The thermometer wait time is only a basis only when we expect the meat to remain in the danger zone more than 4 hours. Or that possibility exists. The Intact muscle rule was used along with HACCP rules to create this safety rule. This is a proper use of the foodcode. It contains what is necessary to create safe methodology for doing what we want to do.

For this smoking website that means, how do we tell members to safetly handle their low and slow requirements without putting themselves or their families at risk. Combining the intact muscle method for handling meat that is going to be in the danger zone to long is an answer.

These are based on normal useage with high therm/btu kitchen cooking tools. Low and Slow smoking is an exception.


It is not without special precautions. There are two things in the foodcode we draw on to make it safe. First a High humidity cooking system (a smoke is such a unit) has an exception in the foodcode to be used down to 200 F. (less with a haccp plan) and second, the foodcode gives us the guidance on what proper therm/btu is with its recommendation to get the meat through the danger zone within 4 hours, or incorporate the Intact Muscle roast rule for safe ways to hold meat in the danger zone longer safely.

The documents you are referring to are quick references, not the foodcode. The 225 F temp was picked when guidelines for smoking were first being developed. Just as the 185 F temp was selected for slow cooker crock pots.

As you have pointed out many of the USDA publications have not come up to speed with the 2009 foodcode. It is that reason I would recommend that SMF keep using the actual Federal Regulations rather than get into using digested versions of that code, many of which are based on older versions of the foodcode and won't be updated until someone requests it. (Which I did last night on the Grilling, Barbeque, Poultry and Slow Cooker printings.) The latest Federal Foodcode is always the correct reference.

I would recommend that SMF keep its present position of utilizing the latest Federal Foodcode. It is the proper method. It is the law.


I agree and that is why I would recommend keeping the Federal Foodcode and not incorporating non-regulation marketing documents when it comes to food safety. I think the gnats and camels come from not wanting to follow the foodcode and instead trying to incorporate other documents that are not the latest rules. While I applaud the spirited debate, I feel the foodcode is the safest place to look to for proper answers.

Of course I know it means that the questions will keep coming as the foodcode is malleable as is all science. But with that document we know what is expected.

 

[bbally]

Not a problem, I don't take offense to questions at all. I only offer the foodcode as it is used commercially to keep people safe. And SMF did adopt the foodcode and not flyers and marketing pieces for this reason. The marketing pieces are fraught with errors and omissions and are not updated everytime a new foodcode is adopted. But the foodcode is not, that is why my recommendation was to adopt the foodcode as the basis for food safety questions. It is the safest methodology based on science.

Ask away... working science is always open to challenge, and we all learn more as we strive to find the correct answers. Although I will resist answers that want to include information not up to date nor based on the foodcode.

The other guides and such at USDA may not be updated for 5 years or more. But the foodcode is visited every year.

First USDA is assuming that you are using 325 F as a cooking temperature. So the therm/btu level is not going to stay in the danger zone longer enough to worry about when to insert the thermometer.

This is another reason we should only be using the foodcode at SMF. As I said many times before, people may do as they please... but the recommendations we offer should be from the foodcode not the marketing pieces put out by USDA and USDA extension offices.

Smoking of meat in the low slow method requires special rules in the commercial environment because they understand that the method has increased danger and therefore requires special proceedures. This means we go to the foodcode because it is outside the norm.

In my opinion that is using the foodcode and not "marketing documents" and I beleive that part was settled a month or so ago when SMF adopted the foodcode only.

Actually if you read the 2009 foodcode it has been changed to reach 135 F in four hours. And yes you need to get it through there within Four hours unless you use the intact muscle rule.

 

[deltadude]

Please provide the link to the commercial food code, I had it and can't find it now..

 

[stircrazy]

ok I just read the food code that pertains to this part and I think there is a lot of confusions here.. they mentions a 4 hour holding limit which they talk about seperate to cooking.. actualy there is no mention on cooking realy aside from minimal internal temps. maybe that is a different section?

so from charts and other reading the holding is after it is cooked.. so it must be either cooled to below 40 degrees within 4 hours or held above 140.

now from actual reading on the bacteria the temps are actualy 50 to 120, but 40 to 140 is just being safe and putting some error to make some of the dummies safe I guess. also it is specificaly stated in several documents that boiling for 10 min will destroy the toxin.

now a question I have is that through reading this and looking into a few things, it is stated that the first 1/2" of meet that nees to be cooked to 140 degrees in 4 hours. so are you guys measuring the first 1/2" or are you probing to the middle of the hunk of meet?

Steve