Sodium Erythorbate Woes

[geostriata]

So I love sodium erythorbate. I love the bright red coloring it gets me, the preservative benefits, and the antioxidant properties. However, what I don't love are the pitfalls that Mariansky mentions about cure accelerators:

"Curing accelerators are of little use in air dried products as by increasing nitrite reaction they deplete its amount. As a result, less nitrite is available for long term curing."
​

This is why one shouldn't use Sodium Erythorbate with dry curing (Thanks D Dave in AZ ). This also presents my dilemma... When I use commercial spice blends, they often use extractives that dissolve quite well in water. I believe this enables them to quickly absorb into the meat, leading to superior taste in the final product. When I use DIY spice blends, I find that I need to marinate overnight for the meat to get the flavor. So if I cube the meat with the spices, cure, and sodium erythorbate, I would be violating Mariansky's rule and decreasing my nitrate reaction. So my question is, what do you all think is the best option?

1. Marinate cubed meat in spices without cure overnight, add cure + erythorbate the next day.​
2. Marinate cubed meat in spices with cure overnight, add erythorbate the next day?​
3. Marinate cubed meat in spices with cure and erythorbate. To hell with Mariansky's recommendation.​
4. Something else?​

What do you all think?

 

[Dave in AZ]

So I love sodium erythorbate. I love the bright red coloring it gets me, the preservative benefits, and the antioxidant properties. However, what I don't love are the pitfalls that Mariansky mentions about cure accelerators:

"Curing accelerators are of little use in air dried products as by increasing nitrite reaction they deplete its amount. As a result, less nitrite is available for long term curing."
​

This is why one shouldn't use Sodium Erythorbate with dry curing (Thanks D Dave in AZ ). This also presents my dilemma... When I use commercial spice blends, they often use extractives that dissolve quite well in water. I believe this enables them to quickly absorb into the meat, leading to superior taste in the final product. When I use DIY spice blends, I find that I need to marinate overnight for the meat to get the flavor. So if I cube the meat with the spices, cure, and sodium erythorbate, I would be violating Mariansky's rule and decreasing my nitrate reaction. So my question is, what do you all think is the best option?

1. Marinate cubed meat in spices without cure overnight, add cure + erythorbate the next day.​
2. Marinate cubed meat in spices with cure overnight, add erythorbate the next day?​
3. Marinate cubed meat in spices with cure and erythorbate. To hell with Mariansky's recommendation.​
4. Something else?​

What do you all think?

I never cure cubed meat. I add it to the ground meat. Much more rapid and complete absorbtion of the cure. If you mix the nitrite and accelerators into ground meat, all the release NO will be grabbed and used by the meat, vs just off gassing into atmosphere when applied as a dry rub, and almost as bad on cubed meat. It is a simple surface area ratio issue.

I see zero scientific or flavor reason to cure meat in chunks. Any oxidation concerns are negated by refrigeration and plastic wrap. Having read on this extensively, I feel the curing of chunks was primarily driven by commercial time/workflow issues that rewarded going directly from grind to stuff. These economic concerns do not apply to home user.

Additionally, with an accelerator, little or no rest is even required for the ground meat. My primary reasons for using SE, or ascorbic acid , as accelerators are, in order of importance:
1. Process speed- no overnight cure, direct from grind to stuff to cook.
2. Speed
3. Speed
4. Color formation and retention
5. Antioxidation

 

[geostriata]

I never cure cubed meat. I add it to the ground meat. Much more rapid and complete absorbtion of the cure. If you mix the nitrite and accelerators into ground meat, all the release NO will be grabbed and used by the meat, vs just off gassing into atmosphere when applied as a dry rub, and almost as bad on cubed meat. It is a simple surface area ratio issue.

Thanks for your thoughts on that! I'm trying the Pepperoni being discussed, and just wanting do a bit of a sanity check.

Based on your feedback, my plan is to vacuum marinade the meat in seasoning and apply the cure with the erythorbate when I grind the next day (i.e., option #1). This is sort of based on the question: is it better to flavor meat after it's cured or before it's cured? I'm thinking the latter...

 

[chopsaw]

Curing cubed meat before grinding in my opinion gives a far superior product . Mariansky talks about it as a quality move that gets skipped .
I tried it awhile back to see , and I completely agree , but you just have to plan for it .
I cubed the meat and add the cure and salt .

Pack it tight in a bowl , cover with plastic wrap right on the cubes .

Cure 3 days , no need to mix .
After 3 days . Cubes are fully cured and ready to be ground .
This is test piece cooked and cut open .


I add the erythorbate in to the grind with the seasonings .
This is summer sausage . Smoked then cooked to 152 .

Top shelf quality for an all pork grind . Bind , taste , color and texture are all improved .

Not sure if you're making a dry cured or cooked product . So if dry cured I don't know if this works or not . I never use erythorbate as an accelerator , just as protection to set and hold the color .

 

[rjob]

Below is a link on "vacuum marinating" by Dr. Blonder that you might find of interest.

why pressure and vacuum marination does not work

 

[indaswamp]

I recommend to never us a commercial spice blend when dry curing......

 

[geostriata]

Below is a link on "vacuum marinating" by Dr. Blonder that you might find of interest.

why pressure and vacuum marination does not work

I read that before I bought my vacuum tumbler. Almost was dissuaded back then, but I'm glad I wasn't! I think there's some good points there, but I'm not convinced that vacuum tumbling simply doesn't work at all.

Two points about the Blonder article:

1. His vacuum was weak (he used a cheap food saver pump only capable of 0.5ATM)
2. He didn't test tumbling at all (which I believe is more important than the vacuum). For this to be an effective test, he needs to test tumbling action under a vacuum.
3. He literally says: "It is true that tumbling in a vacuum helps break up muscle fibers, and increases tenderness."

So really, his article should say something like: "Vacuum tumbling doesn't work in the way we think it works" or "The vacuum is the least important part of vacuum tumbling" or something to that effect.

Personally, I like my vacuum tumbler. It's nice to not have to worry about even dispersal of the marinade. Maybe I'll run a comparison test at some point to see if it's just for the tumbling or if the added vacuum actually does anything...

 

[geostriata]

Curing cubed meat before grinding in my opinion gives a far superior product . Mariansky talks about it as a quality move that gets skipped .

Thanks! This is useful to know. I have seen mention of Mariansky recipes including cure on cubed meat, but it seems like that's more of because it's a traditional Polish method and Mariansky is a bit of a traditionalist. I haven't seen anything that says how or why it's better. I'll dig through my Mariansky books to see if I can find anything...

If indeed curing the cubed meat is better, then that implies an approach where I cure + flavor the meat, and add erythorbate when I grind later on. This way, we don't have the surface erythorbate/cure problem that Mariansky mentions, but we also get the benefits of curing the cubed meat. If it isn't better, I can simply marinate the meat and add the cure + erythorbate when I grind.

Oh, I'm doing a cooked pepperoni recipe btw, not a dry cure.

 

[geostriata]

I recommend to never us a commercial spice blend when dry curing......

You're absolutely right! Check out this dry rub bacon cure from Waltons.

• They use way too much salt in their forulation. And as a result, folks complain that it's too salty. Their answer? To instruct people to the SOAK the dry rubbed bacon in water for 20 minutes!
• They use erythorbate in their formulation, which is problematic for the reasons mentioned above.

I really thought that Waltons was a decent name with a decent reputation before I discovered this startling error on their part. Remarkable.

 

[chopsaw]

I haven't seen anything that says how or why it's better. I'll dig through my Mariansky books to see if I can find anything...

Go to the recipe page on the website .
Scroll down and find " curing meat for sausages "
Read that section , then click on that heading . It takes you to more info as to why .

 

[geostriata]

Go to the recipe page on the website .
Scroll down and find " curing meat for sausages "
Read that section , then click on that heading . It takes you to more info as to why .

Hmm, I read the page and saw:

"The dry method of curing is used to cure meat for sausages. Meat should be cut into smaller pieces, about 2 inches (5-6 cm) and not heavier than 0.5 lb (250 g). Meat should be thoroughly mixed with salt, Cure #1 (salt, nitrite), sugar (if used) and packed tightly in a container, not higher than 8 inches (20 cm)."​

But no header I could click to tell me why that is the best approach, or any better than the alternatives he mentions. For example, Method 2:

"Method 2. Grind each meat through a proper plate (as dictated by the recipe). Mix meat with salt, Cure #1 and other ingredients. Stuff sausages and place in a cooler for 12-24 hours before smoking. When removed from a cooler they have to be conditioned at room temperature for a few hours to remove moisture from the surface."​

So from my reading, it seems he's saying that curing cubed meat is the traditional way of doing it, but not that it's any better or worse.

 

[Dustin Dorsey]

I will cure the cubed up meat overnight but that's about it. I don't know that it matters one way or the other that significantly. The main reason I do it is just to break up the steps so I'm not doing all the work on one day. Friday night I can cube up the meat, weigh it, weigh out spices, etc. Saturday I can grind the meat and either stuff and link if I'm going to smoke it or just grind the meat if I'm feeling lazy. Sunday stuff and link or smoke and then vacuum seal what I'm going to vacuum seal. There's no one right way. There are things that make more sense in certain situations.

Sometimes I'm going to try to get everything done in one day and use a cure accelerator. The end product is usually indistinguishable.

I think it maybe makes sense not to use a cure accelerator in something you were going to put in a drying cabinet. But just basic dry curing I see no reason not to.

 

[chopsaw]

So from my reading, it seems he's saying that curing cubed meat is the traditional way of doing it, but not that it's any better or worse.

Then you completely missed his point .

"The dry method of curing is used to cure meat for sausages

Did you read the 4 paragraphs above that ?
If not I would go read it or read it again , whichever applies .
I only commented because you asked about pre curing meat .

This is one of his statements from that section .
Let make something absolutely clear, you don’t need to cure meat to make a sausage, however, it will be a much better product if the meat has been cured. Curing is an extra process that requires more time, designated containers and a space in a refrigerator. The reason we advocate the curing procedure is that the highest quality smoked sausages are made from meat that has been cured.

 

[geostriata]

Then you completely missed his point .

Did you read the 4 paragraphs above that ?
If not I would go read it or read it again , whichever applies .
I only commented because you asked about pre curing meat .

This is one of his statements from that section .
Let make something absolutely clear, you don’t need to cure meat to make a sausage, however, it will be a much better product if the meat has been cured. Curing is an extra process that requires more time, designated containers and a space in a refrigerator. The reason we advocate the curing procedure is that the highest quality smoked sausages are made from meat that has been cured.

Yes, I read the whole page several times. The prior four paragraphs summarized:

1. The best sausages made in Europe in years 1950-1990. He's implying that modern methods have lost a bit of quality.
2. He talks about how we use curing accelerators, pump injectors, and meat tumblers. In short, he's saying that by shortening the curing time, we're losing something.
3. Here he talks about how cure makes meat better.
4. Here he talks about curing flavor. Time is needed for curing flavor. Curing accelerators give you that red color early, but if you rush the process not enough time has passed to enable the curing flavor.

Again, he never says why curing cubed meat is before grind is better than adding cure during/after the grind. He instead talks about not allowing enough time for the cure to work it's magic and add curing flavor, which has nothing to do with that order of operation.

 

[SmokinEdge]

G geostriata

This might be of interest to you.

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/sodium-erythorbate-dry-rub-test.320393/

 

[chopsaw]

he never says why

You just stated all his reasons why in post 14 .

 

[geostriata]

G geostriata

This might be of interest to you.

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/sodium-erythorbate-dry-rub-test.320393/

Ok, that just made my head explode. Thanks for posting that!

So Waltons may not be completely wrong in including sodium erythorbate (their dry cure salt percentage is still too high, though). In any case, it does show that Mariansky's recommendation to not use erythorbate with dry curing may not be a solid one... In addition, SmokinEdge did report a good flavor from his experiment, but how can that be? Could Mariansky also be wrong about the time needed for special 'Curing Flavor'?

I took a deeper look, because chopsaw 's reference was a new one to me. Mariansky's books simply don't make the same claim here that are made on his website. There's nothing about time needed for 'Curing Flavor' in his books, where it could be red and looked cured, but not have that cured aroma/test...

His "Home Production" book was published in 2010, and referring to the Wayback machine, his website also didn't make this claim until an update was made in November of 2021. This is not the first time he's made some bolder assertions on his website that were not present in his books.

 

[chopsaw]

I have the books , but I live in the recipe section of the website . I always try to reference that when I suggest things because I know there are differences .

 

[SmokinEdge]

So Waltons may not be completely wrong in including sodium erythorbate (their dry cure salt percentage is still too high, though). In any case, it does show that Mariansky's recommendation to not use erythorbate with dry curing may not be a solid one... In addition, SmokinEdge did report a good flavor from his experiment, but how can that be? Could Mariansky also be wrong about the time needed for special 'Curing Flavor'?

I think you are confusing what Marianski said. He said not to use cure accelerators with semi-dry or dried products. I agree with him for sure. But cure accelerators such as sodium erythorbate are fine otherwise. Just because it’s called a “dry rub” does not equate to a semi-dry cured or long dry cured meat product. 7-14 days is not considered as either.

 

[geostriata]

You just stated all his reasons why in post 14 .

No, I didn't. Let's go over the summary of his 4 paragraphs again, starting with the first paragraph.

1. The best sausages made in Europe in years 1950-1990. He's implying that modern methods have lost a bit of quality.

I agree with his critique on "Modern methods." There is a lot done for more profits that yields to a product of lower quality. However, I have no reason to believe he's referring to the order of operation (cure cubed, then grind vs. grind, then cure).

2. He talks about how we use curing accelerators, pump injectors, and meat tumblers. In short, he's saying that by shortening the curing time, we're losing something.

This may or not be true, but is unrelated. Imagine two scenarios:

1. We cube meat with cure and then let it cure for 24hrs. Then we grind it
2. We grind meat, and then mix cure with it and let it rest for 24hrs.

In both situations, we're not shortening the curing time. So even if you agree with his "Curing Flavor" paragraph, the order of operations is not relevant.

3. Here he talks about how cure makes meat better.

No contest

4. Here he talks about curing flavor. Time is needed for curing flavor. Curing accelerators give you that red color early, but if you rush the process not enough time has passed to enable the curing flavor.

Again, this is unrelated to the order of operation.

So again, I will assert that Mariansky never says why curing cubed meat is before grind is better than adding cure during/after the grind.