Salty Salmon

[akhap]

Okay, back to the linked wsu paper flaws... But first, they are correct in pointing out that enough salt can infiltrate fish in very reasonable times... like 30 minutes... but fail to point out that salt will migrate throughout the fish while the pellicle forms. The equalization will be slow, but continue throughout the entire process.

They suggest a pellicle can be formed by putting the fish in the smoker at 80-90F... I have made that mistake before... How they go from suggesting the fish be placed in a cool dry spot to sticking them in a smoker with heat on is completely beyond me! How about putting the fish in the smoker with NO heat and a fan? Too-rapid drying will produce a hard pellicle with a very wet center which leads to bad things in the smoker when it heats up.

They do a great job of graphing the temperatures, both cook and internal, but fail to understand what happens at various points. And they even suggest fish needs to go internally to 160F! Yet it is good sushi after freezing and has the drying benefit of salt... It is ridiculous.

They also make the point smoke is not an effective preservative under most conditions... but do not mention it is in the conditions involving smoked salmon. Between the salt, drying, and the smoke it adds up to fairly good conditions for keeping smoked salmon safely.

They claim little quality is lost in frozen smoked fish because it is so dry... I have found exactly the opposite to be true. I smoke smaller batches of salmon and far prefer salmon straight out of the smoker.

Then there is the crowning jewel "Although regulations for commercial fish smokers may permit a minimum internal fish temperature lower than 160°F for the 30 minutes of cooking, home smokers don’t have the continuous time—temperature recording equipment necessary to ensure proper cooking. Therefore, it is important to maintain these standards." In other words, just to be sure you are safe enough they suggest you ruin your fish...

So those would be my complaints about the paper... it is sadly typical.
art

 

[daveomak]

Art, evening....  Fortunately (or unfortunately in some folks cases) Institutions are there to safely guide all folks through the process of making foods safe to eat... On this Forum, that is our primary goal...  food safety.....   some folks don't have the "complete" understanding of the FSIS, HAACP, USDA, FDA and Federal and State papers on food preparation, processing and food safety etc....

Personal preference is understood and not looked down upon, by us at the forum...  some like pepper, some don't.... the food is still very good...  some folks haven't had the opportunity to form a pellicle on a salmon 500 times until they perfected it....  some have never had fresh salmon... some have never had ocean bright king or sockeye.... I have never had heritage/heirloom pork... only store bought big industry raised pig... nobody is on me for not eating "real pig"....   You are very fortunate to live in the great state of Alaska and have access to moose, caribou, sockeye, chum, pink, coho and king right at your door....  Our members do the best they can when they arrive at this forum and it is our personal commitment, and that of the members, to help them improve in the areas that interest them...  Whether it be curing, smoking, gardening, bread making it doesn't matter....  

So, back to the point.... We at SMF rely on the feds for guidelines everyone can follow to make safe food.  You don't have to follow the guidelines... that is your choice...  on this forum, discussions follow accepted food safe practices.... we cannot, in good faith, condone practices that are deemed unsafe by the alphabet agencies..... 

By the way, as I said in a previous post... I kipper my fish pretty much exactly using your method.... have for years.....  I guess the two of us make the best kippered salmon in the world... 

 ....    Dave

 

[akhap]

Dave
Believe me, I understand the whole concept of satisfying the alphabets, but there has to be a limit... The simple fact they condone ground meat jerky while claiming to emphasize safety is laughable. But the real issue is how far they have to get over the line before things are "safe enough."

Assuming you have been following my directions for years, you must make very good fish! ;)

BTW, this is not one trick pony or even a one trick pony... I do lots of birds, domestic and wild; venison in lots of flavors like moose, caribou, sheep, mt goat, bear, and deer almost every year; as well as seafood and lots of fish other than salmon.
thanks
art

 

[akhap]

Dave
One issue that I failed to make that bears noting above all others... The various agencies producing these "papers" get to pick their own ideas of the correct parameters and often go so far over into the ridiculous to be certain they are safe that it ruins the whole piece of information. In this case the paper has gone beyond any other I recall in temperature absurdities while failing to make a single positive point for better smoked fish. They have proven they lack the real background to produce this advice in the first place.

Next week I will make a call to the folks at the fisheries center in Kodiak and get their phone number to post. They have some very sharp folks and they do a lot of cool research in the fish sciences and the focus is quality food...
art

 

[mr t 59874]

Bryce, are you confused yet?  The question is what your personal preferences are.

In an effort clear the air.  While I use more than one recipe for salmon, the one that I posted was from a food process and marketing perspective.  The challenge to me was to develop a recipe that would produce a good well accepted product while meeting the minimal FDA and USDA requirements.  If I were asked buy the fed inspectors who were looking at my HACCP plan why the minimum requirements of salinity, heat and time were not met, I don’t think they would accept the fact that someone on a cooking forum said that salmon shouldn’t go over 140 °.  

Salmon can be prepared from raw as in sushi to dried jerky with baked, grilled and smoked in-between.   In my opinion with so many ways to prepare it, other than personal preferences, no one should say what is best for all.

Unlike the fortunate ones, some of us don’t have the access to really fresh salmon although your fish monger may tell you it’s fresh.  Salmon flesh is very fragile and if not handled properly can break or start to pull apart.  This causes areas where the ability to form a proper pellicle can be difficult thus allowing the internal fat to come to the surface when cooking.  With a good pellicle on salmon with no tares, l have been able to take it to above 160° for customers who prefer a dryer salmon without fat coming to the surface.

As for the comments on the publication from the universities of Washington, Oregon and Idaho, I have yet to see any credible documentation to back any claims that they are wrong.

To sum things up, at least for me.  It is comforting knowing that the product that I prepare for others is both safe and to their liking.

Bryce, I hope that somewhere in all the post made in your thread has helped you in some way.  If you like, feel free to PM me.

 Tom

 

[akhap]

Okay... I thought you had looked at the USDA suggested temperatures...

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct10/safe1010.htm

Here is the first paper to catch my eye when I Googled "salmon smoking USDA" and here is the first line in their hot smoking description;

"Hot-smoking, a lesser-used option for salmon, uses temperatures of about 140˚F and takes about 6 to 10 hours. Hot-smoking cooks the fish, giving it a different taste and texture than cold-smoked fish."

They are suggesting salmon is commonly smoked at about 140F... That is not the same as cooking to an internal temp of 140...

Now realize they are also saying cold smoking is more common (it isn't commercially so in AK, but is in outlying areas) and okay safety-wise:
"Most processors opt for cold smoking, which uses temperatures of 68˚F to 86˚F to smoke—but not cook—the fillets. Cold-smoking takes about 3 to 4 days."

How is it that 140 is unsafe?

When competitions are held here I guarantee you the judges will barely look at fish with "curds" as some call the ooze... It will rate an automatic shoulder shrug and litle more.

Taking salmon to 160 with a good pellicle will keep the fat inside mostly, but it will not help the damage done to the flesh by overcooking.

BTW the broken flesh damage done to salmon is from mishanding while the fish is in rigor. Straightening a crooked fish to fillet it for example will break the fish badly, which is why fish is allowed to go into and out of rigor before they are filleted in commercial operations. I prefer to have my fish in the freezer before then. Freezing fish while in hard rigor will stop the activity and break-down of rigor and may lead to flesh damage, too. The fish will not be relaxed and will break when handled after thawing.
art

 

[daveomak]

Art, I can't find where "cold smoking salmon" passes food inspectors criteria for "safe for the general public and retail sales"...

I did find, in the article you linked to, where there are pathogens that can live in cold smoked products, and food scientists are trying to develop a technique for "safe to eat" salmon and other fishes to "acceptably kill all harmful stuff"...

You are 

  when it comes to recommending food practices, that are not acceptable to the food industry alphabet agencies, on this forum....   

You and I and those that totally understand food borne illness and the consequences of consuming food that has not been prepared according to "safe food handling practices" can do so at their own risk....  

I, for one, will not take the responsibility of someone's child dying from consuming prepared foods that contained listeria or other pathogens that were not properly treated for in the curing or cooking process...  

Please take the time to try and understand our position and our goals to educate the general public on preparing "food that is safe for themselves, their family and friends"..   

An excerpt from the article AKhap linked....

Popular fish like salmon, catfish, and tilapia are coming under the close scrutiny of Agricultural Research Service  food-safety scientists Andy Hwang and Kathleen Rajkowski. They’re discovering more about how to prevent foodborne pathogens from contaminating these and other delicious, good-for-you seafood. Both scientists are based at the ARS Eastern Regional Research Center in Wyndmoor, Pennsylvania.

Hwang, a food technologist, has completed a series of studies in which he’s simulated—in his laboratory—commercial processes used today for preparing smoked salmon. A gourmet treat, smoked salmon is typically sold in vacuum packages that have a refrigerator shelf life of about 3 to 8 weeks, according to Hwang. Trouble is, pathogenic microbes like Listeria monocytogenes  can live at refrigerated temperatures, so it’s important to get rid of these harmful microbes before the product leaves the processing plant.

Smoked salmon, pricey and, when properly prepared, delicate in texture, is often served in thin slices with bagels and cream cheese or as an appetizer, stacked on toast-type crackers with red onion and a splash of lemon juice. Too, some sushi bars feature smoked salmon surrounded by sticky rice and snugly wrapped in seaweed.

Hwang is looking for ways that processors can protect the pleasing flavor and texture of smoked salmon while reducing or eliminating contamination by L. monocytogenes  or other foodborne pathogens.

At the Smokehouse

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Here you go, the Processing Parameters for Pathogen Control in Cold-Smoked Fish as far as the FDA is concerned.......

http://www.fda.gov/Food/ScienceResearch/ResearchAreas/SafePracticesforFoodProcesses/ucm092182.htm


~Martin

 

[akhap]

Art, I can't find where "cold smoking salmon" passes food inspectors criteria for "safe for the general public and retail sales"...

I did find, in the article you linked to, where there are pathogens that can live in cold smoked products, and food scientists are trying to develop a technique for "safe to eat" salmon and other fishes to "acceptably kill all harmful stuff"...

You are :deadhorse:   when it comes to recommending food practices, that are not acceptable to the food industry alphabet agencies, on this forum....   

You and I and those that totally understand food borne illness and the consequences of consuming food that has not been prepared according to "safe food handling practices" can do so at their own risk....  

I, for one, will not take the responsibility of someone's child dying from consuming prepared foods that contained listeria or other pathogens that were not properly treated for in the curing or cooking process...  

Please take the time to try and understand our position and our goals to educate the general public on preparing "food that is safe for themselves, their family and friends"..   

An excerpt from the article AKhap linked....


Popular fish like salmon, catfish, and tilapia are coming under the close scrutiny of Agricultural Research Service food-safety scientists Andy Hwang and Kathleen Rajkowski. They’re discovering more about how to prevent foodborne pathogens from contaminating these and other delicious, good-for-you seafood. Both scientists are based at the ARS Eastern Regional Research Center in Wyndmoor, Pennsylvania.
Hwang, a food technologist, has completed a series of studies in which he’s simulated—in his laboratory—commercial processes used today for preparing smoked salmon. A gourmet treat, smoked salmon is typically sold in vacuum packages that have a refrigerator shelf life of about 3 to 8 weeks, according to Hwang. Trouble is, pathogenic microbes like Listeria monocytogenes can live at refrigerated temperatures, so it’s important to get rid of these harmful microbes before the product leaves the processing plant.
Smoked salmon, pricey and, when properly prepared, delicate in texture, is often served in thin slices with bagels and cream cheese or as an appetizer, stacked on toast-type crackers with red onion and a splash of lemon juice. Too, some sushi bars feature smoked salmon surrounded by sticky rice and snugly wrapped in seaweed.
Hwang is looking for ways that processors can protect the pleasing flavor and texture of smoked salmon while reducing or eliminating contamination by L. monocytogenes or other foodborne pathogens.
At the Smokehouse

Dave
Somebody better tell the commercial cold smokers they cannot do what they have been doing for decades with Alphabet approval... They do not even list a minimum temperature for cold smoked fish.
art

 

[akhap]

Dave
The big problem here is multiple entities putting out inconsistent information... and a lot of it is just ridiculous. USDA Guidelines are understandable as sources, but a WSU paper put out by an obvious non-player is not the place to look for solid information.

I have not found the USDA standards for salmon hot smoking temperatures and do not have time to look for it right now. IIRC they are only 130F at 3.8 was. But that could be subject to change or has been changed already.

Have to run my wife is patiently waiting for me to go try to find a moose for her to shoot. It is getting mighty breezey and we have a forecast for 110 mph winds tonight.
art

As I have said before, if it was anywhere else they would name these storms...

 

[daveomak]

Here you go, the Processing Parameters for Pathogen Control in Cold-Smoked Fish as far as the FDA is concerned.......

http://www.fda.gov/Food/ScienceResearch/ResearchAreas/SafePracticesforFoodProcesses/ucm092182.htm


~Martin

Martin, Thanks..... A member from Nove Scotia was looking for Canadian regs on cold smoking fish about 1-2 weeks ago.... I could not find Canadian regs either...    

I have skimmed all the pages and I will reread points of interest someday.... I find it interesting that there are many bacteria etc. present in fish and the limited effect salt, nitrite, etc has on them.... temp seems to be the best method.... although some organisms are  fairly well controlled by smoking..  botulina something or another is one of them due to its anerobic qualities....    

Talk at you later...   Dave

 

[mr t 59874]

Dave, I cold smoke salmon but only when preparing it for canning.  It is smoked for a shorter amount of time due to the fact that canning intensifies the smoke flavor.  As the temperature is taken to over 240 degrees in a pressure canner or retort, all concern of C - Bot is eliminated when properly sealed.

 Canning salmon could be another interesting thread.

Tom

 

[daveomak]

 It is smoked for a shorter amount of time due to the fact that canning intensifies the smoke flavor.

Mr T, morning.... You are definitely correct on canning intensifying the smoke...  My first attempt at canning fish, I couldn't eat the canned stuff...  Very steep learning curve on canning smoked products....   Dave

 

[roddy]

I'm new to smoking but did a couple of pieces of salmon the other week. I overbrined. Not alot but enough. I did find when I mixed it with cream cheese and mayo and mixed well it made a great topping on a toasted bagel with no high salt flavor.