Salty Salmon

[bryce]

Smoked some more salmon last night and somehow i over did it on the salt. It's not inedible but its sure salty, particularly the thin pieces.....yuck! I've read a lot about accidental over-salts but this is my first time. What a frickin bummer.

 

[smokinhusker]

That stinks!

 

[daveomak]

Bryce, morning.....  I have found weighing salt gives repeatable results on all cuts of meat.....  Generally, 8-12 grams per pound works well, depending on the cut.... For salmon, 8 grams/# distributing less to the thinner parts works well..  kind of a pain to weigh but worth it when you consider inedible meat....    Dave 

 

[big lew bbq]

I agree with DaveOmak, I have always weighed out my salt for brining.  

Big Lew BBQ

 

[bryce]

Yeah what a bummer. I just took a bunch of it and made some salmon spread an hour ago.

Anyhow, i think i'll have to go with the weighing method. I'm just not going to risk this again.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[pipesdaddy]

Definitely good idea , a new kind of idea of salmon cooking , i want to test this..

 

[akhap]

In my experience and opinion extended brining time greatly raises the risk of over-salted fish. There is no benefit to brining more than 90 minutes and lots of risk. Dry brining, especially with fish that has not been frozen, can create problems with uneven salting, but if limited to 90 minutes you will not oversalt it.

After brining the fish should be rinsed in cold water, very quickly. Do not allow fish waiting to be rinsed to sit in the rinse water.
art

 

[mr t 59874]

 In order to have brine that will cure your salmon while infusing a good flavor there has to be a “balance” between the salt and sugar.  For example a recipe that calls for 1 cup salt (10.2oz.) and 2 cups sugar in one gallon of water (39% sal.) will taste salty compared to one that calls for 2 cups of salt and 8 cups of sugar (80% sal.), brining times being the same. 

  It's the ratio of salt to sugar that will make your brine seem salty. Once that balance has been achieved, you cannot change one without changing the other. I want my fish to take on the flavor of the brine. If the brine tastes salty before the fish is added, guess what.  Believe me a lot of expensive salmon has found its way to the trash can discovering this.

The following should help.  Take note of the brine strengths and temperatures.

Salmon - Smoking fish at home Safely - wsu.edu-

In the following recipe you will notice that I brine for 16 to 20 hours.  I brine for a long period in order to insure 100% brine saturation for the following reasons. One is to insure complete saturation for preservation purposes, of course it insures equal flavor throughout the thicker cuts as well as the thin ones also.  Another is convenience, as I can thaw and brine one day and the next air dry to form pellicle and smoke. This way it doesn't take a whole day to do fish.

I hope this helps clarify some of the confusion. Let me know.

Mr. T’s “Smoked Salmon from Go to Show”

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...almon-from-go-to-show-w-q-view/20#post_835384

 

[akhap]

[SIZE=12pt] In order to have brine that will cure your salmon while infusing a good flavor there has to be a “balance” between the salt and sugar.  For example a recipe that calls for 1 cup salt (10.2oz.) and 2 cups sugar in one gallon of water (39% sal.) will taste salty compared to one that calls for 2 cups of salt and 8 cups of sugar (80% sal.), brining times being the same. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]  It's the ratio of salt to sugar that will make your brine seem salty. Once that balance has been achieved, you cannot change one without changing the other. I want my fish to take on the flavor of the brine. If the brine tastes salty before the fish is added, guess what.  Believe me a lot of expensive salmon has found its way to the trash can discovering this.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The following should help.  Take note of the brine strengths and temperatures.[/SIZE]
Salmon - Smoking fish at home Safely - wsu.edu-

[SIZE=12pt]In the following recipe you will notice that I brine for 16 to 20 hours.  I brine for a long period in order to insure 100% brine saturation for the following reasons. One is to insure complete saturation for preservation purposes, of course it insures equal flavor throughout the thicker cuts as well as the thin ones also.  Another is convenience, as I can thaw and brine one day and the next air dry to form pellicle and smoke. This way it doesn't take a whole day to do fish.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I hope this helps clarify some of the confusion. Let me know.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Mr. T’s “Smoked Salmon from Go to Show”[/SIZE]
http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...almon-from-go-to-show-w-q-view/20#post_835384

I respectfully submit the WSU link is seriously flawed and outdated... Their description of the pellicle formation is incorrect and seriously inhibits the ability to get the best possible product. The cooking process and temperature description shows a failure to understand the issue and leads to a grilled salmon type product rather than a true kippering. Their description of salt as a curing agent is incorrect... And there is more...

However they do point out the falacy of extended brining times...
art

 

[mr t 59874]

I respectfully submit the WSU link is seriously flawed and outdated... Their description of the pellicle formation is incorrect and seriously inhibits the ability to get the best possible product. The cooking process and temperature description shows a failure to understand the issue and leads to a grilled salmon type product rather than a true kippering for longer term preservation. Their description of salt as a curing agent is incorrect... And there is more...
However they do point out the falacy of extended brining times...
art

Interesting, would you please share the other flaws in the WSU pub.

Thanks

 

[dls1]

Interesting, would you please share the other flaws in the WSU pub.

Thanks

I'd be interested in seeing the flaws also.

Having read both Mr T's and AK hap's threads on the subject of smoking salmon, I find it interesting that 2 individuals, who are making the same item, use a process/recipe that, with the exception of approximately the same finish temp, differ quite a bit yet end up with a finished product that both like and enjoy. Could be just a matter of regional practice and/or personal preferences where there are no rights or wrongs.

A few things caught my attention. Mr. T cited smoker temp and the PH/Salinity levels of his brine. I may have missed it, but I don't recall seeing that info in AKhaps thread. Mr. T did provide some documentation from WSU, and while I don't have the expertise to pass judgement on it, AKhaps hasn't provided any documentation to refute it. Finally, there's the subject of salt. Both provided volumes, but only Mr. T provided weight. As there can be a significant difference in the weights of the same volume of certain salts, I'd be interested in knowing what types and brands each individual used.

 

[bigfish98]

OK I want to hear from both experts on not only what dls1 said above, but a local store here has Keta Salmon on sale.  I have done some reasearch and I see that it is leaner than other types.  Is there any difference in smoking?  Or is this fish not recommended?  Whats the deal?

 

[dls1]

OK I want to hear from both experts on not only what dls1 said above, but a local store here has Keta Salmon on sale.  I have done some reasearch and I see that it is leaner than other types.  Is there any difference in smoking?  Or is this fish not recommended?  Whats the deal?

Keta salmon, aka Chum, Dog, or Silverbrite salmon, is fine. While it's not as flavorful as King or Sockeye it's still a good fish, and a big improvement over farmed Atlantic salmon. If the price is right, go for it.

 

[daveomak]

Keta salmon, aka Chum, Dog, or Silverbrite salmon, is fine. While it's not as flavorful as King or Sockeye it's still a good fish, and a big improvement over farmed Atlantic salmon. If the price is right, go for it.

What dls1 said....   especially about the farmed fish....  

I have smoked many Chums and I also can them for sandwiches etc....   They spawn in the lower sections of rivers, and therefore do not have the fat layer, (food storage) for those long trips up river that other salmon have.. I think their diet consists of a variety of food while in the oceans including shrimp and some plankton due to the smaller teeth when still ocean feeding...  When they mature, they have some huge teeth.. AKA Dog salmon nickname...  I find their flavor milder than other species but they still have the omega health benefits... When on a budget, they are my "go to" protein from the ocean.... When ocean caught before they "water mark".. "Stripes" on the skin... They are very good...  We caught many in SE Alaska and they brought a very fair price.....   Dave

PS... They are an absolute blast to catch on a fly rod, in the fall, in the rivers.. They are a really powerful fish and give a great fight...  a shrimp pattern works well.....  

 

[mr t 59874]

bigfish98, Please do not confuse me with an expert as I don’t claim to be one.  I simply try to share what I have learned over almost 50 years of smoking foods so others might pick something up here and there.

I try to encourage others to experiment with different techniques and recipes and learn from the mistakes of others (like myself) to come up with their own.

I am not at all familiar with the Keta Salmon, but I don’t know of any fish that would not benefit from spending some time in the smoker.   It’s my opinion that if it’s on sale, it would be a good time to experiment just in case it doesn’t turn out the way you would like.  Take good notes so you can make adjustments to fit your taste in future smokes.

dsl1, the salts I normally use in brining are Morton Canning and Pickling Salt because of its ability to dissolve easily in cold water or Morton Kosher Salt.  Actually any salt can be used as long as it is non -iodized.  Some prefer sea salt as it has different minerals in it depending on the region it comes from.

 

[akhap]

Interesting, would you please share the other flaws in the WSU pub.

Thanks

Let's start with the ridiculous: In the opening paragraph they fall back on the old canard about safety and use Botulism as the demon. I guess if you are looking for mythical adversaries you may as well start with a worthy one. There is virtually no chance of smoked salmon causing Botulism as long as it has not been improperly canned or otherwise mishandled after smoking... to start it needs an anaerobic environment, the exact opposite of what salmon goes through.

They fall back on the old requirements for ground meat and such when they suggest 150F internally is required. I submit that anyone that tries the difference between identical pieces of fish brought to 150 versus 140 would see the difference instantly. At 150 it is not ruined, but it has been compromised significantly. This is mostly because the fat within the flesh has started to denature. This creates a "grainy" texture and greatly reduces the feel of moisture (it is liquid fat that has been lost, not water) and has a mouth feel many find cloying.

There is a ton more, but I just got a call and need to give a buddy a hand for the balance of the morning. I will try to add significantly more soon.

As a teaser, anyone that believes measuring salt to the nearest grain matters, please calculate the salt absorption rate of salmon at 35F, 45F, and 55F in a hypertonic solution at 40F for 90 minutes and adjust for every piece

 

[daveomak]

To everyone interested in smoking fish, I found this loooong explanation about smoking fish which has some very interesting points to consider and explanations of what goes on during the smoking and brining process....  I was initially looking for "salt absorption rate and different temps" because I thought that was an interesting subject....   

AKhap has obviously experimented, with brining techniques, and perfected it over a long period of time.... I read his thread on Kippering salmon and agree with what he has done...  I personally follow his techniques and the finished product is awesome...  

However, I have found that "time sensitive" brining is not something that works for me and I use the weighed salt / pound of fish as a good guide... For me, it is not time and temp sensitive and provides a quality product with a consistent salt concentration... 

I am not disagreeing with anyone's methods... Once you find a smoked fish you are in love with, the search ends....  If you are still looking, AKhap's methods are something you should consider.... especially when it comes to the fat rendering from the flesh and changing the texture of the meat.....   I'm sure, as an example, we have all had Prime Rib at a restaurant at one point in our lives that had a "sawdust" texture to it....    Dave

 

[mr t 59874]

Dave,  Interesting discussion, we probably should have started another thread.

After receiving my HAACP certificate a couple years ago, I thought I would apply it to my smoked fish just for practice.  Ironically I used the Sea Grant pub you posted along with the following as an aid.  One of the CCP's (critical control point) was a minimum salinity of 60% for safely smoking fish.  I just completed a test using AKhap's brine recipe.  The results were a salinity of 28%.

Maybe you will find the following interesting also.

http://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sgpubs/onlinepubs/i97001.html

There seems to be a thought that the longer brine times and higher internal temps will produce a "sawdust" texture.  I have yet to experience that.  Rather the fish is moist and quite pleasant.

Tom

 

[akhap]

There seems to be a thought that the longer brine times and higher internal temps will produce a "sawdust" texture.  I have yet to experience that.  Rather the fish is moist and quite pleasant.

Tom

Sawdust is not the right word... But once you have tried fish that has no white oozing fat and never exceeded 140F I guarantee you will understand. I have had too many folks see the difference to believe you would be the first to not taste it.
respectfully,
art

 

[akhap]

Dave
If I had settled for "good enough" decades ago I would have fallen far short of really good. One thing about smoked salmon is it will tolerate some abuse and remain edible! :yahoo:

Fortunately I have had a few talented folks help me and I have had a tremendous amount of fish available to work with for many years.
art