Pork Shoulder took 36 hours to smoke - Why?

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Wow, great replies.

I've always figured that my cheap Masterbuilt was pourous enough since smoke billows out from every shoddy weld joint! Point made though, especially in the cold/wind/rain that I probably should open that vent some and crank the heat more. I suppose I was being miserly and trying not to waste extra propane. The tradeoff might have been that I wasted time instead of propane.

The end of the story is that the pulled pork dinner that my inlaws and family gathered for, turned into a Plan B trip to the Thai restaurant for take-out...that wasn't cheap!
 
Water activity hysteresis equilibrium stall.

Mallard reaction takes place at all temperatures. Just slower when lower.

Basically the water activity reaches a resonant frequency where energy in equals energy passed through. Evaporation stalls so time rise stalls. Easiest way to change it stab it with a big steel fork in a couple places. Breaks the bark moisture loss will return oscillation will break and temp rise will start again. Although it you get it to do this it will be some damn tender meat it you wait.

I think I understand what you said....  http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/activity.html  



I'll have to read and re-read that a few times to get a handle on it...  


Stabbing the meat with a fork, does that help to "skip over" the stall ??



Dave

Yes anything that disrupts the thermal energy current moving in the same path does it. Sometimes just flipping them is enough
 
After 36 hours in the smoker, I'd think you could pull it apart at 145˚. The thing about connective tissue breaking down is that it's a product of both time and temperature. The more time, the less heat required.

All that being said, get your smoker a little hotter. No need to risk getting sick.
I agree, I have had pullable butts as low as 182°, I no longer go by temp but by feel, temp is only a guide line IMHO. 

the outside temp and wind was your issue if you didnt have it sheltered with a wall or something like that, the cold weather was sucking all the heat out of your smoker..on my MES 40 i put a welding blanket over top of it, i keep the exhaust port open of course, for cold weather overnight smokes
The most reasonable answer to your "problem" so far IMHO.

That is correct. Maillard reaction takes place at all temperatures it just takes longer.
 
Water activity hysteresis equilibrium stall.

Mallard reaction takes place at all temperatures. Just slower when lower.

Basically the water activity reaches a resonant frequency where energy in equals energy passed through. Evaporation stalls so time rise stalls. Easiest way to change it stab it with a big steel fork in a couple places. Breaks the bark moisture loss will return oscillation will break and temp rise will start again. Although it you get it to do this it will be some damn tender meat it you wait.

I think I understand what you said....  http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/activity.html  



I'll have to read and re-read that a few times to get a handle on it...  


Stabbing the meat with a fork, does that help to "skip over" the stall ??



Dave

You will need to review a little on fluid oscillation as well. The water activity goes high and low as the infrared energy pushes from molecule and exits to the next. If they reach resonance where the energy added by the heat source equals the energy into the item heating which equals the energy leaving the item and that matches the energy leaving the heat box you can have a stall.

We are just using thermal transfer which is a set of frequencies same as music.
 
I took a look at that sight Dave, Seems right. If you run your meat through a dehydrator before smoking there is no stall and bacteria growth is inhibited. Sounds yummy.

There is no stall if you cook at 325°-350° also.

This is caused by being so far above the water activity boiling point. You move from slow water activity to the higher level in the steam tables. All cooking is water activity, temperature decides what phase the molecule is in. Sometimes referred to as state.
 
lot of good ideas on this mystery but i think i would go with Dave and Redneck with  this one, even though they had different ways to present it, i think the messege sounds reasonable.  i have a Masterbuilt electric that is digital. i have no problems in cold weather with it for it is insulated well. i did a 8 pound butt in 10 hours at 240 deg. and pulled it at 205 int. wrapped and let it rest and pulled. not being an expert with the mechanics i think the cold weather had something to do with the butt taking so long because the gas Masterbuilt the original poster has is not insulated at all. i also kept my vent open the entire time of the cooking cycle. i'm a sausage head and a rookie when it comes to this type of smoking but that's my opinion. Reinhard
 
Water activity hysteresis equilibrium stall.

Mallard reaction takes place at all temperatures. Just slower when lower.

Basically the water activity reaches a resonant frequency where energy in equals energy passed through. Evaporation stalls so time rise stalls. Easiest way to change it stab it with a big steel fork in a couple places. Breaks the bark moisture loss will return oscillation will break and temp rise will start again. Although it you get it to do this it will be some damn tender meat it you wait.
Yes anything that disrupts the thermal energy current moving in the same path does it. Sometimes just flipping them is enough
That is correct. Maillard reaction takes place at all temperatures it just takes longer.
You will need to review a little on fluid oscillation as well. The water activity goes high and low as the infrared energy pushes from molecule and exits to the next. If they reach resonance where the energy added by the heat source equals the energy into the item heating which equals the energy leaving the item and that matches the energy leaving the heat box you can have a stall.

We are just using thermal transfer which is a set of frequencies same as music.
This is caused by being so far above the water activity boiling point. You move from slow water activity to the higher level in the steam tables. All cooking is water activity, temperature decides what phase the molecule is in. Sometimes referred to as state.
Can you please back-up what you've posted with some relevant references and translate it to layman's terms?

Thanks!
 
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 [color= rgb(128, 0, 0)]http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/activity.html   [/color]

There is the link I looked up because I needed some clarification.....  and it has been posted in many posts in this thread...  

By the way, bbally is a professional cook.....   and a very good guy....  He wouldn't try to B.S. you with anything related to food.....

Maybe with other stuff but not food related subjects.....  Please read his signature line... 

Dave
 
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Can you please back-up what you've posted with some relevant references and translate it to layman's terms?

Thanks!
Would love to, but that requires you to have a degree in Spectroscopy or we are going to be here for a long time.  As far as amylase and Maillard, just look em up.  You will be surprised what you learn doing a little research to educate yourself on something someone said.  Then ask questions if you don't understand something.

But basically all cooking is thermodynamics.  More specifically the exchange of energy in the infrared spectrum.  Everything has a resonant frequency.

To "see it"

Watch this video of Galloping Gertie 

This is an example of an oscillator going into a resonance mode.  Here the wind represents the heat (infrared wave of your cooking source) and the bridge represents the meat you are cooking.

As you watch the amplitude of the wave (the bridge bucking harder and higher) you will see a close up of the cable (looks like a pipe line but it is actually the casing of the bridges suspension cables) moving in a countable pendulum pattern,  (This is the frequency, in this case very low frequency) as the wind (your heat source) adds energy you watch the bridge rise and fall harder and harder.  All resonance oscillators gain in amplitude if you add more power.  The bridge is shifting the energy from side to side.  Finally you see complete mechanical failure of the steel when the amplitude exceeds the strength of the steel.  Causing the energy to be released in a violent mechanical failure.

That is an oscillator.  Much much much faster the water inside you meat is doing the same thing.  If one could tune the wind to a specific speed the bridge would oscillate at the same rate forever if the loss matched the energy the wind was putting into it.  This is what happens with a water activity stall when resonance is reached.  (This is what the stall is, nothing magic, just science.)  In most case the energy coming into the meat is equal to the heat loss leaving the meat and the cooker happens to be adding and losing the same amount of heat.  Adjustments will change this, opening the damper will cool the meat (bad) increasing the temperature will start a new resonance pattern (what we would do in the Southern Pride smoker if we stalled as we know the stall is not magical but a pain since we have to serve on time.) Or you could disturb the oscillator by flipping it with a good squashing, or stabbing it with a fork.  (if the bridge had steel added to it the amplitude of the wave would change.)  Anyway point is a stall is nothing...... you don't have to wait just crank the heat for half an hour or so, or stab the meat or flip the meat... but don't just wait there, backyard lore says oh you just have to wait it out.  That is BS spread by people that subscribe to magic, not science.  Kill the stall and move on.

Change the function of the oscillator stops the stall.  Most commonly people will watch a stall for a long time thinking it is some kind of magical moment.  Stab the crap out of it with a fork, or pull it and mash on it a little and you can skip the stall.  In the commercial world this is no we will feed you tomorrow sometime since the meat stalled, there is get it done on time.  So we don't wait for a stall to stop, we either stab it or kick the heat up from 250 to 325 for about an hour and it is over.  In the backyard realm there is reverence for the stall, but it is just since and a pain in the butt!

If you pick up a college text on thermal dynamics you will become a much better cook IMO.  Even if you just read the beginning stuff on energy transfer.

Been a chef for 35 years now, started as one, been a practicing engineer for 28 years now.  One pays the bills one relieves the stress!  Cooking relieves the stress and has lots of interesting science in it.
 
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Huh?
icon_eek.gif

I thought the stall was due to evaporative cooling?



~Martin
No it is not.  But the effect of evaporative loss could be observed around the meat because the meat is transferring energy out to a cooler area.  (Infrared energy moves from higher energy to lower energy.  But for the stall to happen it has to be happening at resonant frequency.  Some meats won't stall internally they are too dissimilar to oscillate.
 
Well, according to other "scientists" it is!!! LOL
Are you saying that evaporative cooling does not occur in a smoker?

~Martin
Evaporative cooling is the loss of heat from one source to another.  IE in a swamp cooler where aspen pads or a man made material is wetted, air drawn through the pads.  The air going through the pads gives up some of its Infrared energy (heat) to water in the pads. (water loves heat, it is also what cooks) Which causes a delta T loss across the pad area making the air going into the house cooler than the air outside.

So to answer your question evaporative cooling works.  However inside a cooker the delta T would be the difference between the temperature of the air and smoke in the cooker and the temperature of the meat.

Which also means since the meat is lower than the temperature of the cooker that the meat is acting to absorb infrared energy.  So there will be a temperature gradient around the meat.  But it is not doing what people think it is not a cooler, but a heat sink.

This in a stall stops as the bark or outside coating has an isolative property to it which hampers heat moving into the meat.  It also hampers heat release should it be necessary.  (bottom overheating due to fire exposure or reverse flow indirect heating plate (element) so the water activity tends to become more and more isolated.
 
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What do you think about smoking at wet-bulb temperature and is wet bulb temperature a good indication of meat surface temperature.?


~Martin
Most smokers are at saturation for the running temperature.  So IMO you are so close to 100 percent humidity inside a well designed and/or manufactured smoker that you are always going to be at wet bulb anyway.  So just measure with a temp probe be within a few degrees.  Certainly less than the error in most temp probes..  (jerky driers don't count as a smoker!  and I have seen some homemade designs that are jerky driers disguised as a smoker cooker.)

Wet bulb is not a good indicator of the meat surface temperature.  It is a good indication of what the meat is seeing for outside temp, but thermal transfer is immediate so technically meat surface is always slightly under the surrounding temperature.  (Unless you cook like Piney.... once it goes char and catches on fire it is all the same temperature!  FLASHPOINT!  LOL!)
 
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In my experience, that's not the case in most smokers.
There is a definite difference between the dry-bulb and the wet-bulb temperature.
I think I'm going to stick with what a very well known physicist, other scientists and the USDA say.


~Martin
 
Hmmm!
That's opposite what others say, including the USDA.



~Martin
I won't try and guess what the circumstances are that created the USDA decision to go with wet bulb.  I assume since humidity is a good indicator of thermal transfer they like it for cooking application to keep the convection oven users honest? 
 
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