Newbie, Questions about Injecting for Pork Loins and Brisket/Pastrami

[SmokeAndCoffee]

Hi Everyone,

Long time follower, but rare contributor. I am smoking more now and would like to increase my menu options from just brisket, ribs, pulled pork, cheeks and osobuco, with a couple tries at bacon, to also include more cured meats and sausages.

I have done a couple batches of pork loins and pastramis before, but I would like to reduce the curing time.

I have a few questions that might help me understand things a bit more since there isn't really clear info about some things out there. Hopefully they can help out a few others also. The are:

1) For making Bacon/Canadian Bacon (pork loin) the limit of nitrite for immersion/injection is 120 ppm and for brisket for corned beef or pastrami is 200 ppm.
a) Is this correct?
b) what is the minimum you would make sure it is?
c) When people are using the 0.25% for wet brines (156ppm) is that just an error on not knowing that the recommended limit for immersion/injected bacon is 120ppm?
d) Is there a minimum cure time recommended to make sure there aren't residual nitrite when frying the bacon in the pan?
e) If you will be frying bacon should sodium erythorbate be included in the cure? Does this apply to immersion or or injected only?

2) Online I see people make their brines (with curing salt), and then inject some of it, without really measuring how much was injected, or a ratio of meat to brine solution.
a) What is the proper method?
b) I want to understand how to prepare the injection brine and the cover pickle solution. I have seen different things, i) again people use the same solution, ii) Waltons video on youtube suggest half concentration of the pickle solution, iii) USDA Processing Inspectors' Handbook Version I can find online I think suggests you determine the percent of the maximum limit being injected, and then the balance of remaining percent can be included in the cover pickle (see snip below).
c) The example 1) in the snip below mentioned in b), it says that only 72ppm is allowed in the immersion stage. Is that 72 ppm of the solution, or based on weight of solution + meat?
d) Can you also clarify if you are addressing just the Curing Salt (PP1) or also the kosher salt in the injection and pickle solution. Will it achieve an equilibrium or is a deslination required?
e) When injecting, I have seen some people suggest it is ready in 1-2 days, but on Meathead's website he mentions it just reduces the time based on the calculator by 30%, what do you find? and does letting it sit longer improve it?

I really appreciate any help with this.


USDA Processing Inspectors' Handbook Revision 1995

 

[SmokinEdge]

Your system is overloaded. All good questions though.
Just stick to the .25% of cure #1 on everything and you will be fine.

The questions you ask all have answers, but it would read like a full print newspaper. One thing at a time, and I for one will help you understand. Lots of good information here on this site.

 

[SmokeAndCoffee]

Your system is overloaded. All good questions though.
Just stick to the .25% of cure #1 on everything and you will be fine.

The questions you ask all have answers, but it would read like a full print newspaper. One thing at a time, and I for one will help you understand. Lots of good information here on this site.

Thanks. Really appreciate it.

 

[zwiller]

I was like you in the beginning and overthinking it and rushing it. DON'T. Best way to stop rushing is to get other things on deck. I typically have 2-3 things going a week or 2 apart. Next thing you know, OH crap I need to smoke this!

Cured loin is my fave and run it often. I dry cure with TQ. 1TBSP per pound hold a month. Yeah that simple. That said, I used to pump cure with STPP and Sodium Erythorbate (SE) and it works well and done in a few days. I think the TQ results are a little better tho. Bottom line with pump curing is there is a saturation point where the meat no longer can take anymore liquid and that limit is around 10% so the curing math accounts for that. Take a look here at this thread. This is the method a LOT us here use. Omak worked in the field and adapted the commercial process for home use.

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t...injected-using-my-method-money-sliced.285882/

Most recent run from last week on top and an old pumped one below. The SE gives it a deeper color almost purple shade.

 

[SmokeAndCoffee]

Injection cuts cure time by 40-50%, don't go below 100ppm, and just put the remaining allowable balance in the cover pickle. Everything else is overthinking it.

Thanks and sorry for the delayed response.

just to clarify,
1) Is that 100ppm based on meat only, or meat+water?
2) Is it using the immersion calculation, or the pump calculation assuming 10%?
3) when you mention "remaining allowable balance" do you mean if it was calculated using the pump equation and 10% for say 110ppm, that would be 110/120=92%. so if the immersion method is also 120 ppm, then its should be calculated as 8% of 120ppm (or 10 ppm) based on meat and water weight?

I know I'm in the weeds, I am just trying to understand it.

 

[SmokeAndCoffee]

I was like you in the beginning and overthinking it and rushing it. DON'T. Best way to stop rushing is to get other things on deck. I typically have 2-3 things going a week or 2 apart. Next thing you know, OH crap I need to smoke this!

Cured loin is my fave and run it often. I dry cure with TQ. 1TBSP per pound hold a month. Yeah that simple. That said, I used to pump cure with STPP and Sodium Erythorbate (SE) and it works well and done in a few days. I think the TQ results are a little better tho. Bottom line with pump curing is there is a saturation point where the meat no longer can take anymore liquid and that limit is around 10% so the curing math accounts for that. Take a look here at this thread. This is the method a LOT us here use. Omak worked in the field and adapted the commercial process for home use.

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t...injected-using-my-method-money-sliced.285882/

Most recent run from last week on top and an old pumped one below. The SE gives it a deeper color almost purple shade.


View attachment 735105

View attachment 735106

That looks amazing.
Do you pull at 145f?
I think Cured and Smoked Loin is really under rated.
I made a batch and prep it in a pan after to make BLTs and the sandwiches are so much better. Especially with a nice homemade garlic mayo.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Thanks and sorry for the delayed response.

just to clarify,
1) Is that 100ppm based on meat only, or meat+water?
2) Is it using the immersion calculation, or the pump calculation assuming 10%?
3) when you mention "remaining allowable balance" do you mean if it was calculated using the pump equation and 10% for say 110ppm, that would be 110/120=92%. so if the immersion method is also 120 ppm, then its should be calculated as 8% of 120ppm (or 10 ppm) based on meat and water weight?

I know I'm in the weeds, I am just trying to understand it.

Stick with .25% cure 1 to meat weight. This inputs 156ppm.
When injecting always place meat in a container such as a tub or meat lug to inject. It’s near impossible with a syringe to get the full 10% into the meat much less manage the leakage from the injection sites. So do the best you can to get it all in there, but any residual injection left inside the tub can be added into the bag with the meat.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Use 10% of meat weight as the weight of liquid to be used. Then calculate salt, cure 1 and sugar all to meat weight only and dissolve into the liquid. Cool and inject.

 

[zwiller]

That looks amazing.
Do you pull at 145f?
I think Cured and Smoked Loin is really under rated.
I made a batch and prep it in a pan after to make BLTs and the sandwiches are so much better. Especially with a nice homemade garlic mayo.

Thank you. Yeah I pull around there and some times up higher not super critical. Oh yeah underrated for sure. I got hooked on loins at a young age from my uncle making eggs benny for Easter. Add to that I can routinely find them near $1/lb too. I get 3 runs out of a whole loin. Center section is cured/smoked. Sirloin (fattier) section is pork steaks (schwenkbraten) and other section is schnitzel or BBQ pork chops.

I know I'm in the weeds, I am just trying to understand it.

Your are NOT in weeds and just overthinking it bit. You're close now I can tell. Despite how technical this can be there is diminishing returns. IE accounting for bone weight. Omak who was a pro said 10% accuracy at best so his injection does not even take into account for the liquid. Once he told me that it clicked for me.

 

[SmokeAndCoffee]

Thank you. Yeah I pull around there and some times up higher not super critical. Oh yeah underrated for sure. I got hooked on loins at a young age from my uncle making eggs benny for Easter. Add to that I can routinely find them near $1/lb too. I get 3 runs out of a whole loin. Center section is cured/smoked. Sirloin (fattier) section is pork steaks (schwenkbraten) and other section is schnitzel or BBQ pork chops.

I need to learn how to poach eggs and make that sauce. It looks really good.
I'm sure the doctor will tell me to cut he sauce at least.

Your are NOT in weeds and just overthinking it bit. You're close now I can tell. Despite how technical this can be there is diminishing returns. IE accounting for bone weight. Omak who was a pro said 10% accuracy at best so his injection does not even take into account for the liquid. Once he told me that it clicked for me.

View attachment 735520

I'm getting there. Do you inject, or just dry or wet brine?

 

[SmokeAndCoffee]

Use 10% of meat weight as the weight of liquid to be used. Then calculate salt, cure 1 and sugar all to meat weight only and dissolve into the liquid. Cool and inject.

Thanks. Once injected, does it not need a cover solution?

 

[SmokeAndCoffee]

Stick with .25% cure 1 to meat weight. This inputs 156ppm.
When injecting always place meat in a container such as a tub or meat lug to inject. It’s near impossible with a syringe to get the full 10% into the meat much less manage the leakage from the injection sites. So do the best you can to get it all in there, but any residual injection left inside the tub can be added into the bag with the meat.

So there is very little liquid in the bag then I guess. Or do you make another cover solution?

If you were going to make Pastrami. What would be your plan around that? All the spices in the 10% that get injected?

 

[SmokinEdge]

Thanks. Once injected, does it not need a cover solution?

No

So there is very little liquid in the bag then I guess. Or do you make another cover solution?

If you were going to make Pastrami. What would be your plan around that? All the spices in the 10% that get injected?

Very little liquid in the bag is correct. Everything the meat needs such as salt, cure #1 and sugar are all in the injection, no need to add more.

For pastrami, once injected you can rub the outside with any kind of spice mix you like just don’t add salts.

 

[zwiller]

I need to learn how to poach eggs and make that sauce. It looks really good.
I'm sure the doctor will tell me to cut he sauce at least.

We use a cheap microwave thing to poach, super easy. Sauce is Knorr Packet. I used to do scratch and used a "blender hollandaise recipe" I got somewhere but took a lot of work to dial in. Lots of people overlook it but english muffin was toasted. Yeah unhealthy, but Easter only. Wife's cheesy taters for dinner that day are probably WAY worse than this

I'm getting there. Do you inject, or just dry or wet brine?

Done it all and as of late, just 1T TQ per lb.

 

[thirdeye]

Long time follower, but rare contributor. I am smoking more now and would like to increase my menu options from just brisket, ribs, pulled pork, cheeks and osobuco, with a couple tries at bacon, to also include more cured meats and sausages.

Man... you have stumbled upon an enormous resource as you experiment with curing various meats or sausages. I'm a third generation back porch charcuterist, my Grandfather made bacon and ham during the depression.

One thing I'll contribute to this conversation is that once you decide on a ratio of salt and sugar, and if it falls into the "equilibrium" method of curing... you are able to go beyond a 5-day or 7-day curing time. And the product is a bit more enjoyable.

Pork loins are a great option for experimenting. 15 years ago when the "Buckboard bacon" method was in full swing on all the BBQ forums, loins were an alternative to curing pork shoulders. I can't tell you how many loins I cured around the holiday season for gifting.

And cured pork chops are a good value if you buy the family packs.

 

[SmokeAndCoffee]

Man... you have stumbled upon an enormous resource as you experiment with curing various meats or sausages. I'm a third generation back porch charcuterist, my Grandfather made bacon and ham during the depression.

One thing I'll contribute to this conversation is that once you decide on a ratio of salt and sugar, and if it falls into the "equilibrium" method of curing... you are able to go beyond a 5-day or 7-day curing time. And the product is a bit more enjoyable.

Pork loins are a great option for experimenting. 15 years ago when the "Buckboard bacon" method was in full swing on all the BBQ forums, loins were an alternative to curing pork shoulders. I can't tell you how many loins I cured around the holiday season for gifting.

And cured pork chops are a good value if you buy the family packs.

Love smoked pork chops, but isn't that just loin with the bone still attached? same meat.
I have been doing 2% Salt, 0.24% PP1, and 2% Sugar, and 0.5% Black Pepper. Seems to be coming out pretty good. I have tried with more Aromatics, onions, garlic, etc like a pastrami brine almost, and I think the more basic Canadian Bacon is the winner.

Does Dry Curing really make it turn out much different than wet curing?

 

[SmokeAndCoffee]

No

Very little liquid in the bag is correct. Everything the meat needs such as salt, cure #1 and sugar are all in the injection, no need to add more.

For pastrami, once injected you can rub the outside with any kind of spice mix you like just don’t add salts.

Thanks, exactly the info I was after.
Does the need to be vacuum sealed? or just a normal bag with a twist tie/cable tie, or ziploc, or any container with a lid? I assume its more to prevent it from drying out while sitting in the fridge.

I normally follow the calculator on Amazing Ribs website for how long to let it cure in the fridge for. If I inject, how long do you recommend? 30% less than the calculator or even quicker?

Thanks again

 

[SmokinEdge]

Thanks, exactly the info I was after.
Does the need to be vacuum sealed? or just a normal bag with a twist tie/cable tie, or ziploc, or any container with a lid? I assume its more to prevent it from drying out while sitting in the fridge.

I normally follow the calculator on Amazing Ribs website for how long to let it cure in the fridge for. If I inject, how long do you recommend? 30% less than the calculator or even quicker?

Thanks again

No vacuum needed but is fine, I just use zip bags, they take up less space than containers.

I know nothing about cure calculators, from experience I’ll say go 5 days and you are cured. That said the best flavor will come around day 10-14 so I always try to be in that window which allows flavor balance and development.

 

[thirdeye]

Love smoked pork chops, but isn't that just loin with the bone still attached? same meat.

Does Dry Curing really make it turn out much different than wet curing?

The large muscle on a bone-in (center cut) pork chop is the loin, and the small muscle is the tenderloin. Just like a T-bone or Porterhouse steak on a beef.
Good link that covers all pork chop cuts: https://www.thekitchn.com/a-complete-guide-to-pork-chops-meat-basics-208638

Dry curing vs wet curing is a personal preference with respect to flavor and texture. For instance, I prefer dry cured bacon, dry cured salmon & trout, dry cured jerky, injection cured Boston butts and pork loins, and immersion + injection when corning roasts for corned beef, pastrami or porkstrami.

 

[SmokeAndCoffee]

The large muscle on a bone-in (center cut) pork chop is the loin, and the small muscle is the tenderloin. Just like a T-bone or Porterhouse steak on a beef.
Good link that covers all pork chop cuts: https://www.thekitchn.com/a-complete-guide-to-pork-chops-meat-basics-208638

Dry curing vs wet curing is a personal preference with respect to flavor and texture. For instance, I prefer dry cured bacon, dry cured salmon & trout, dry cured jerky, injection cured Boston butts and pork loins, and immersion + injection when corning roasts for corned beef, pastrami or porkstrami.

I really like cured smoked loin/chop that is finished on a hot plate/pan when it's time to eat.

I'll definitely give the dry cure a shot for loins. I'm really enjoying them over pork belly bacon in BLTs.