Newbie Prague powder #1 question: Did I (maybe) put too much

[mrtrue]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post and I apologize ahead of time if this isn't the right place for my question.

I started curing a 2 lbs brisket the other day and using a reputable calculator I made a brine using a half gallon of water and what I thought was a a teaspoon of Prague powder 1. The concern I have is I was doing dishes earlier and for some reason I got it in my head I may have used a tablespoon instead (I've overthought it now and have no idea which one I actually used at this point).

My question is, if I did in fact use a tablespoon with those ratio's, would it be way too much, with respect to both safety and taste? If there's any question, I wont risk it, but I have read that wet brines can be more forgiving so I am holding out hope I can proceed with what I have. If it matters, I intended to smoke the brisket after a desalination.

Thank you for any advice/feedback. Either way, I will learn from this situation :)

-Rich

 

[tallbm]

Hi there and welcome!

I don't have any definite answers for ya but maybe some helpful info.
First off, what are you curing this brisket to make out of it?

I can tell you that a tablespoon is roughly = to 3 teaspoons.
You have 6 pounds (2 pounds meat 1/2 gallon water =4lbs) of stuff you are curing.
3 teaspoons of cure is good for 15 pounds of stuff to cure.

This means if you DID use a tablespoon of cure #1 that you can add 9 pounds more stuff to even out the curing.
1 gallon of water weighs 8 pounds so that almost does the trick.... again if you are sure you used a tablespoon of cure#1.

If you aren't curing this meat or super low and slow smoking like for sausage, or cold smoking for something like bacon then I would suggest you just add a gallon of water and wait an extra few days and then cook the beef.

Remember the true purpose of cure#1 is to protect against cooking/smoking meat at temps and periods of time that are dangerous for non cured meat. If you are neither cooking/smoking at a low enough temp and for a long enough time then the cure is only there for taste.

I mention this because you can safely just add 1 gallon of water and know you will be good to go when time to cook if your cook is not super low and long and your smoke is not a cold smoke. Problem solved in this case :)

I hope all this rambling helps :)

 

[Elita]

Hi, I have roughly the same question. I'm making bacon. The book I'm reading explains cure#1 then goes on to say using that plus 2 more cups of salt in 5 gallons of water is a good brine. So I did that. Then I went on and saw the bacon with is 81 grams of cure #1 to 1 gallon of water. I took my pork, skinless, out and rinsed it off then put it in the new solution. But have i messed up? I'm confused to say the least. I didn't think I was working with levels that would be lethal or make anyone sick but was I wrong? So for clarity I put 1 once of pink salt in 5 gallons of water and about a 10-14 pound skinless pork belly. I left it in for a few hours.
What are some good recommendations for understanding this for someone that is just beginning and isn't comfortable with math? How do I understand the part per million?
Thanks

 

[DanMcG]

I'm not sure how long it's been in the brine but if it's only a couple days I'd dump out the brine, mix a new brine with the correct amount of cure, and carry on.

 

[mrtrue]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Today will be day 5 in the brine, any thoughts on if that will be too far along to go with further dilution? I intended to make a pastrami with it, so if I can salvage it, I will be smoking it at 225 F.

I hope I am not way off base with this, but right now I am thinking that I am going to add a gallon of brine with no additional Prague and give it two more days in the brine. After that, I am going to do an 8 hour desalination with one water change. From what I have reading about nitrates and Prague powder 1, I don't believe I am taking a huge risk by going forward with the cure. Not to mention, there's a very good chance I followed the recipe correctly and am simply being my neurotic self

I remain open to feedback and advice, so if you have an opinion, please chime in!

Happy curing!
-Rich

 

[JC in GB]

Hi, I have roughly the same question. I'm making bacon. The book I'm reading explains cure#1 then goes on to say using that plus 2 more cups of salt in 5 gallons of water is a good brine. So I did that. Then I went on and saw the bacon with is 81 grams of cure #1 to 1 gallon of water. I took my pork, skinless, out and rinsed it off then put it in the new solution. But have i messed up? I'm confused to say the least. I didn't think I was working with levels that would be lethal or make anyone sick but was I wrong? So for clarity I put 1 once of pink salt in 5 gallons of water and about a 10-14 pound skinless pork belly. I left it in for a few hours.
What are some good recommendations for understanding this for someone that is just beginning and isn't comfortable with math? How do I understand the part per million?
Thanks

Your best bet is to use weight for everything. Use metric units for easy conversions.

Example:

To dry brine 1 kg of bacon

1 kg pork belly
Cure #1 2.5 g
Salt 16 g
Sugar 20 g

This will give you a bacon with a salt content of 1.85% and sugar content of 2.0% (Salt content is salt and cure #1 added)

If you want your bacon saltier, add a larger % of salt, if you want it sweeter, add more sugar.

For a brine, treat water the same as meat for weight and ingredient quantities.

JC

 

[daveomak]

Hi, I have roughly the same question. I'm making bacon. The book I'm reading explains cure#1 then goes on to say using that plus 2 more cups of salt in 5 gallons of water is a good brine. So I did that. Then I went on and saw the bacon with is 81 grams of cure #1 to 1 gallon of water. I took my pork, skinless, out and rinsed it off then put it in the new solution. But have i messed up? I'm confused to say the least. I didn't think I was working with levels that would be lethal or make anyone sick but was I wrong? So for clarity I put 1 once of pink salt in 5 gallons of water and about a 10-14 pound skinless pork belly. I left it in for a few hours.
What are some good recommendations for understanding this for someone that is just beginning and isn't comfortable with math? How do I understand the part per million?
Thanks

Eilta, morning.... It's nice to see folks question what's going on......

First I will address salt....

Salt additions should be weighed to have consistency between types of salt

Salt Type ..........................................Weight of 1/4 cup (grams)

Morton’s Table Salt..................................... 76.0
Morton Pickling Salt.................................... 74.0
La Baleine Coarse Sea Salt.........................66.8
La Baleine Fine Sea Salt............................ 64.8
Morton’s Kosher Salt.................................. 62.0
Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt..................... 45.2
Maldon Sea Salt......................................... 33.2


As you can see, salt density can vary depending on who is processing it... So, volume measurements are not accurate.... A 0-100 grams digital scale will give you very good accuracy... About 12-15$.....

Cure #1.....
Is 6.25% nitrite in the U.S.A.. You must check the % nitrite on the label.....

Measuring spoons are not that accurate... I have 2 sets and there is a 25% difference between them so weigh out your cure also...

PPM is calculated on weight vs. weight....
1 gram put into 1,000,000 grams is 1 PPM.....
1 gram put into 1,000 grams is 1,000 PPM...
156 grams put into 1,000,000 grams is 156 PPM....
~1.12 grams (0.25%) of cure#1 will render ~156 PPM nitrite in 1# (454 grams) of meat....
156 PPM is the magic number the USDA says will safely cure 1# of sausage to prevent botulism bacteria from growing in your sausage and possibly killing you... Botulism bacteria is the deadliest naturally occurring bacteria known to man.... so far....
1.12 grams per pound (0.25% or 0.0025 multiplier) is what to shoot for... this is a "window" for safe curing... there is some leeway on either side of this number...

For whole muscle meats like roasts etc, there are 2 standards....
Dry rub using cure#1.. 200 PPM nitrite.. includes bacon...
Liquid brine curing#1.. 156 PPM and 120 PPM for bacon.... (the bacon standard is surrounded in controversy)... but it's the law if you are a commercial processor...
To make a safe and legal curing brine solution.... based on many commercial processors numbers....
Weigh out the meat in grams....
Weigh out water to = 1/2 the weight of the meat....
So, we may have 1362 grams of meat, ~ 3#, and ~680 grams water = ~2042 grams total weight.... (2042 X 0.25(0.0025) = 5.11 grams cure#1, you will end up with 156 PPM nitrite in the brine and meat, given enough time....
A brine cure starts out with the liquid high in nitrite... given time, equilibrium, the nitrite migrates into the meat muscle... by injecting the meat muscle using the brine cure, equilibrium can be achieved much faster..

Sorry, trying to simplify this, I keep digging myself into the weeds..... My end goal is to have everyone understand what's happening in this process...

 

[tallbm]

Great input from the guys so far, bravo!
I was hoping Dave would chime in. Dave has given a great amount of detail and info and always brings great knowledge when it comes to curing!

Hi, I have roughly the same question. I'm making bacon. The book I'm reading explains cure#1 then goes on to say using that plus 2 more cups of salt in 5 gallons of water is a good brine. So I did that. Then I went on and saw the bacon with is 81 grams of cure #1 to 1 gallon of water. I took my pork, skinless, out and rinsed it off then put it in the new solution. But have i messed up? I'm confused to say the least. I didn't think I was working with levels that would be lethal or make anyone sick but was I wrong? So for clarity I put 1 once of pink salt in 5 gallons of water and about a 10-14 pound skinless pork belly. I left it in for a few hours.
What are some good recommendations for understanding this for someone that is just beginning and isn't comfortable with math? How do I understand the part per million?
Thanks

My understanding from the info and great knowledge from guys here, is that cure and salt travels at about 1/4 inch every 24 hours.
So if you only had it in the cure/brine for a few hours and removed it then chances are not much cure and salt got into the meat and u are ok to start over.

Now here is the magic you need to know when curing. Everything should be based on weight.

IMPORTANT: So if you want to cure 10 pounds of stuff at safe USDA levels (156ppm) using a wet brine/cure then you go 1.12 grams per pound of stuff (1 pound = 454gm).

I say "stuff" because the meat and the water amounts all need to be included when measuring your cure and salt by weight (and sugar too).
IMPORTANT: The salt and the cure #1 want to distribute EVENTLY amongst all the "stuff" in your container. The "stuff" in your this and most cases being the WATER and the PORK BELLY.

Simple Steps:

• So you weight the water
• You weight the pork belly
• You add those weights together and THEN you measure out the salt and cure #1 according to that weight where it's 1.12 gm of cure #1 per pound (or per every 454gm)
  
  
• Example: 12 pounds of skinless pork belly weighs... 12 pounds hahaa. 5 gallons of water (1 gallon = 8 pounds) weights a total of 40 pounds. Together you have 52 pounds of stuff.
  You need 58.24gm of cure #1 for all of that "stuff" total
  ( 1.12gm of cure #1 x 52 pounds = 58.24gm)

Most cure #1 + brine combos I come across recommend 2% regular salt and 1% sugar to be added. What does that mean???
It means take your total weight = 52 pounds and x 0.02 (which is 2% for math purposes) = weight of salt needed.

Pounds are a very unfriendly unit of measure and I suggest you just convert everything to grams for super simple conversion math instead of ounces. Ounces can still make for some funny math since 16 ounces make a pound and can confuse people on fractional ounces so again grams are easier to do math with.


This concept and this practice is fool proof. You will never have to guess whether you have the correct amount of cure#1, salt or sugar.

This also works if you aren't even using cure like for a brine. You will never bee too salty or too sugary and you can brine for any period of time and never worry about over salting your meat because again the salt wants to distribute evenly and when does so the water AND the meat will only have 2% salt content :)

I hope this helps clear up some mysteries :)

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Today will be day 5 in the brine, any thoughts on if that will be too far along to go with further dilution? I intended to make a pastrami with it, so if I can salvage it, I will be smoking it at 225 F.

I hope I am not way off base with this, but right now I am thinking that I am going to add a gallon of brine with no additional Prague and give it two more days in the brine. After that, I am going to do an 8 hour desalination with one water change. From what I have reading about nitrates and Prague powder 1, I don't believe I am taking a huge risk by going forward with the cure. Not to mention, there's a very good chance I followed the recipe correctly and am simply being my neurotic self

I remain open to feedback and advice, so if you have an opinion, please chime in!

Happy curing!
-Rich

If youve added the gallon of water you may fine.
FYI if you add extra water now you can effectively do the "desalination" process now while its sitting since the salt and cure want to distribute evenly. Read what I posted as my response to Elita and that statement may make more sense :)

The good thing is that if you add a bunch of water and draw out cure and salt over more days to be safe you should be fine.
You are cooking at 225F so for your purpose the cure #1 is only there for flavor to make pastrami not to actually fight against bacteria because you are cooking at normal temps so you aren't in the super low and long smoking situation where cure #1 is mandatory.

Best to be safe vs sorry, you should be fine with the measures you are taking :)
Just be sure to read up on my reply to Elita for a better understanding how to nail your cure + brine approaches for anything u plan to do so with in the future. The approach makes it all fool proof :)

I hope this info helps :)

 

[Elita]

Thank you, and I don't mean to high jack your thread here but I really need to understand this recipe from the book. The book is written by Stanley marianski who apparently is extremely knowledgeable. Written 11 books and a professional. The book is full of us guidelines and the information you all have shared. Reviews about his sausage recipes from the book are great. Then you get to wet curing. The ham is off and the bacon 81 grams of cure for 5kg. I only use pounds ounces and cups do to my familiarity with that measurement. So thats 13 1/2 tsp of cure #1 to 1 gallon 60 degree water for 11 pounds of meat. Is that even a safe recipe?
The ham as well asks for more cure salt than the going recipes.
I used a calculator in the end that basically matched to pops recipe here so thats what I used. But I need to know about this book. Should I even be using it to teach myself how to do this? Anyone have this book?

 

[DanMcG]

Marianski's books are the best out there.

 

[tallbm]

Thank you, and I don't mean to high jack your thread here but I really need to understand this recipe from the book. The book is written by Stanley marianski who apparently is extremely knowledgeable. Written 11 books and a professional. The book is full of us guidelines and the information you all have shared. Reviews about his sausage recipes from the book are great. Then you get to wet curing. The ham is off and the bacon 81 grams of cure for 5kg. I only use pounds ounces and cups do to my familiarity with that measurement. So thats 13 1/2 tsp of cure #1 to 1 gallon 60 degree water for 11 pounds of meat. Is that even a safe recipe?
The ham as well asks for more cure salt than the going recipes.
I used a calculator in the end that basically matched to pops recipe here so thats what I used. But I need to know about this book. Should I even be using it to teach myself how to do this? Anyone have this book?

The math in that book does not seem right when compared to the USDA regulations and cure ppm ranges. It may be worth looking to see if there are misprints.

Here is documentation from the USDA covering max Nitrite (cure#1) usage and discusses ranges (120ppm -200ppm, talks about 625ppm for "dry cure"):
https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/c...4da3-905b-fa240974a5a9/7620-3.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

On page 6 they discuss "pickle weight" (weight of everything meat + liquid) and guidance. They talk about 200ppm max.
On page 7 they have a table for Nitrites (cure#1 not to be confused with nitrates = cure#2).
The Nitrites section (1st row) discusses pickle, dry cure, and chopped/ground (comminuted) meat.

On page 12 there is another table for Nitrite (cure #1) and maximum levels. In the paragraph below the table it discusses 120ppm as a policy.

So, when you look at that USDA info and then you look at Marianaski's info I would think that his book has misprints or is talking about something other than Cure #1 at 6.25% nitrite. Maybe they are discussing a cure at a much lower level than 6.25% nitrite which can happen. Heck a number of months ago someone from I think Central America noticed their cure #1 was at a much lower % than 6.25% nitrite.
So this is why the PPM and the 6.25% nitrate in cure #1 thing is always brought up.

Cure#1 in the use and Prague powder in the USA should be 6.25% BUT as Dave said, check the package.
Marianaski may mention that the cure he is discussing is at a % that is not 6.25% nitrite so double check that as well on top of potential misprints that the publisher may have sent out.

In any case I would go with the hard guidance of the USDA and I provided the direct link so you know where my reference info is coming from. I cannot speak to any recipe books or publications but they should also cite their sources for safety and accuracy purposes just for situations like this.

No matter what you have the info to follow here :)

 

[daveomak]

From the FSIS handbook...

 

[SmokinEdge]

This whole discussion is exactly why I shy away from brine curing. Per the allowance, you can impart as much as 3.8 oz. of cure #1 per gallon of water. This is a very high ppm but deemed “safe” because we are guessing the uptake in the meat. Composition of the meat, thickness, moisture content of meat all come into play here. Most brine recipes are a high salt, cure content then a specific time for meat to brine in that mixture. Do any of us know how much the uptake per each verity of meat is? It’s impossible to know for sure with brined meat.

I much prefer dry rubbed equilibrium cure, or a mix brine to meat weight at 10% brine to meat to impart my salt, sugar and cure. In this method, I know exactly how much stuff is in the meat. Control is everything in food safety.

 

[daveomak]

The word "uptake" has been twisted by many folks....
"uptake" by the FSIS and USDA is meant to mean, ADDED TO.... as in injection as in 10% pump...
Uptake DOES NOT MEAN... the meat sucking up a % of brine...

Pops neglected to explain that in part of his method....

 

[PolishDeli]

The math in that book does not seem right when compared to the USDA regulations and cure ppm ranges.

I've not seen any inconsistencies between the USDA and Marianski's book.
For Hams, Marianski's methods parallel chapter 11 of the USDA document you provided.
For sausages, he use 156ppm; again consistent with the USDA document.

Can you point to specific examples?

 

[daveomak]

When the USDA or FSIS speaks of nitrite, they are referring to PURE Sodium Nitrite not cure#1...

 

[mrtrue]

Can anyone elaborate on the 3.84 ounces a gallon threshold? Like, is that well established? The reason I ask is because I am using that figure to convince myself that, worst case, my brine is well within the safe range.

That said, I am going to just use pops brine with future corned beefs. Seems like that's the simplest and safest way to go.

Seriously, thanks again to everyone for the help. There's a ton of great info here.

-Rich

 

[PolishDeli]

Can anyone elaborate on the 3.84 ounces a gallon threshold?

That threshold yields about 200 ppm NaNO2 for a 10% pump. Max in-going cure as per the USDA.

Lethal dose od NaNO2 in humans is 22mg/kg of body weight. A 100kg person would have to eat about 35g (~2 TB) of pure cure#1 to fatally OD. So, while curing meats can be dangerous if not done properly, the more likely vector for accidental OD is someone mistaking Cure#1 for Himalayan Pink Salt (i.e., accidental misuse), or a kid being attracted to the pretty shade of pink.

 

[mrtrue]

That threshold yields about 200 ppm NaNO2 for a 10% pump. Max in-going cure as per the USDA.

Thank you for the reply.

Hoping this will be the last question, then I will leave you folks alone for a until my next experiment
But what's the deal with the pump? My initial reading after looking through the forum is that this is injection that has been measured ahead of time and placed in the meat. Is there a standard for the amount we would expect to be taken up through a brine (would we expect more or less that 10% uptake)?.

Bottom line I guess, is the 3.84 ounces only for a an injection at 10%, or would that be acceptable for a wet brine?

Thanks,
-Rich

 

[PolishDeli]

When you mix the 3.8 oz cure#1 with 1 gal water, you'll have a solution that is 2000ppm NaNO2.

Weight your meat.
Lets pretend it is 10 pounds.
10% of 10pounds is 1pound.

Inject your meat with 1 pound of your brine.

You now have meat that is nominally 200ppm NaNO2.

Put the meat in a bucket with the rest if the brine. Put the bucket in the refrigerator. Cure time depends on meat weight.
~1 day per pound.