Newbie Prague powder #1 question: Did I (maybe) put too much

[daveomak]

Read the label on the cure#1.....
It says,
"Use 4 oz. per 100#s of meat"... Then my note about Pops forgetting to mention the part about a 10% pump....
Add 4 oz. in your brine if you are curing 100#'s of meat.... no problem....

Things get lost in translation.... everyone does it.... Hell, I have done it...... Then someone comes along and says, "Dave, reread your post... I think you forgot something.."....

 

[PolishDeli]

daveomak
My understanding of the label instructions is that 4oz of cure#1 into 100 pounds of ground meat yields a 156ppm product.

4oz cure #1 into 1gal water also works though. It yields a 1850ppm solution. At 10% pump, thats 185ppm.

I agree with your comments about Pops recipe missing some details. Like what cure levels to expect.

 

[daveomak]

You are so correct.... my mistake...

So, let me add more confusion...
If 4 oz. cures 100#'s of meat,
4 oz. into 50#'s of meat with 50#'s of water added for a brine solution will render a 156 PPM nitrite in the meat and in the brine solution...
Or, 4 oz. of cure#1 added to 25#'s of meat and 75#'s of water will still render a 156 PPM nitrite in the brine a meat....

 

[tallbm]

I've not seen any inconsistencies between the USDA and Marianski's book.
For Hams, Marianski's methods parallel chapter 11 of the USDA document you provided.
For sausages, he use 156ppm; again consistent with the USDA document.

Can you point to specific examples?

Elita mentioned " 81 grams of cure for 5kg " while speaking about the Marianski book's liquid curing info. I don't own the book so can't attest to it directly.

So if the book gives more details on how that 81 grams for 5kg of stuff is to be used over a specific number of days then that is info I don't have. If it is talking about even distribution of cure then the number seems off.
In your last post you talk about pump and liquid brining over a 1 day period, etc. I don't know if the book is explaining some of that process and magic like that or not.

If you put 81 grams of cure #1 at 6.25% nitrite for 5kg of liquid brine and meat then set it in the fridge until it distributes equally between meat and water I believe you have way more than the recommended ppm. 200ppm for 5kg of liquid and meat is 16g.
81g of cure #1 is just over 5x the amount of cure for 5kg of liquid and meat in a bucket sitting in the fridge until it distributes evenly.

Let me know if I'm missing something here or if there was something lost in translation :)

 

[SmokinEdge]

Just to clear up what Pop’s was trying to do.
His father owned a meat shop that cured meat with just shy of 1/4 of the cure that commercial operations were using. His meats stayed in brine longer and tenderized. This cure mix was made for him by a commercial company. Pop’s, I don’t think, knew exactly what was in this cure Only that the cure was just shy of a 1/4 of standard. When he set out to create his own recipe, he used the standard on the label of DQ cure #1 which states 24# cure to 100 gallons water ( for a 10% pump) he worked that backwards to 0.24 # cure to 1 gallon water, or 3.84 oz. He then stated 1Tbs heaped was about 1 ounce so roughly 4 Tbs per gallon was the guide on the label of cure. He then reduced that to just 1Tbs per gallon of water. About the same as his father had done.

There was a member here by the name of “Wade” who had a laboratory test done on Pop’s version of cure at 1Tbs per gallon of water. Wade tested a pork loin and a piece of pork belly. The parts per million imparted after 14 days brined were:

Fresh brine was 252ppm nitrite.

Loin after 14 days in brine was 102ppm nitrite

Belly after 14 days in brine was 86.3ppm nitrite.

Meat pieces were 1kg respectively.

 

[Brokenhandle]

These guys definitely have you covered! And being new can be very overwhelming when you are trying to cure meat safely! Trust me, I know...I was once a newbie also! Don't get flustered if you don't totally understand the math. Pop's brine is a safe and almost the easiest way to cure meat if you're not sure about doing the math for curing. If it's pork belly then 14 days it will be cured. If it's a thicker piece of meat, then inject it with brine mixture and then place it in remaining brine in a bucket. Definitely get a scale for measuring ingredients, especially cure #1, that can measure in hundredths of grams (as in .00) this is important for doing small batches of meat, such as sausage or sticks.
As has been mentioned... never be afraid to ask more questions, it's all about curing safely. And remember to enjoy it! It gets easier!

Ryan

 

[daveomak]

Wade's testing proved at least 1 thing.... Different muscle groups absorb brine at different rates...

 

[Elita]

Eilta, morning.... It's nice to see folks question what's going on......

First I will address salt....

Salt additions should be weighed to have consistency between types of salt

Salt Type ..........................................Weight of 1/4 cup (grams)

Morton’s Table Salt..................................... 76.0
Morton Pickling Salt.................................... 74.0
La Baleine Coarse Sea Salt.........................66.8
La Baleine Fine Sea Salt............................ 64.8
Morton’s Kosher Salt.................................. 62.0
Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt..................... 45.2
Maldon Sea Salt......................................... 33.2


As you can see, salt density can vary depending on who is processing it... So, volume measurements are not accurate.... A 0-100 grams digital scale will give you very good accuracy... About 12-15$.....

Cure #1.....
Is 6.25% nitrite in the U.S.A.. You must check the % nitrite on the label.....

Measuring spoons are not that accurate... I have 2 sets and there is a 25% difference between them so weigh out your cure also...

PPM is calculated on weight vs. weight....
1 gram put into 1,000,000 grams is 1 PPM.....
1 gram put into 1,000 grams is 1,000 PPM...
156 grams put into 1,000,000 grams is 156 PPM....
~1.12 grams (0.25%) of cure#1 will render ~156 PPM nitrite in 1# (454 grams) of meat....
156 PPM is the magic number the USDA says will safely cure 1# of sausage to prevent botulism bacteria from growing in your sausage and possibly killing you... Botulism bacteria is the deadliest naturally occurring bacteria known to man.... so far....
1.12 grams per pound (0.25% or 0.0025 multiplier) is what to shoot for... this is a "window" for safe curing... there is some leeway on either side of this number...

For whole muscle meats like roasts etc, there are 2 standards....
Dry rub using cure#1.. 200 PPM nitrite.. includes bacon...
Liquid brine curing#1.. 156 PPM and 120 PPM for bacon.... (the bacon standard is surrounded in controversy)... but it's the law if you are a commercial processor...
To make a safe and legal curing brine solution.... based on many commercial processors numbers....
Weigh out the meat in grams....
Weigh out water to = 1/2 the weight of the meat....
So, we may have 1362 grams of meat, ~ 3#, and ~680 grams water = ~2042 grams total weight.... (2042 X 0.25(0.0025) = 5.11 grams cure#1, you will end up with 156 PPM nitrite in the brine and meat, given enough time....
A brine cure starts out with the liquid high in nitrite... given time, equilibrium, the nitrite migrates into the meat muscle... by injecting the meat muscle using the brine cure, equilibrium can be achieved much faster..

Sorry, trying to simplify this, I keep digging myself into the weeds..... My end goal is to have everyone understand what's happening in this process...

Hi, thank you..can you help me with this recipe though. I'm sick on it. From Stanley marianski's book. For 11 pounds of meat. Now I'm just using the scale I'm comfortable with here so don't pick that apart.
1 gallon 60 degree salinity water
81g cure #1
That seems very strong right? Will that make you sick?
Do you have this book or know someone who has used this recipe from it?
I have read that chapter over and over trying to see of i have missed something. Is the cure"1 high because the water is added into the total weight? But then the salt level is st total saturation. And it says to leave it for 10 days. That seems to me like it would be way too long. That the end product would be too salty . I appreciate all the help but I really need to understand this recipe here.

 

[Elita]

I've not seen any inconsistencies between the USDA and Marianski's book.
For Hams, Marianski's methods parallel chapter 11 of the USDA document you provided.
For sausages, he use 156ppm; again consistent with the USDA document.

Can you point to specific examples?

There was another person who had issues with the ham being off in the book from other recipes that wasn't me. But I stated it because it appears that the sausage in his book are spot on but wet cure is off. I haven't made any sausages but this person who had problems with the ham did and said they were great but when he made the ham the cure was more than most recipes said. Here is the post I am referring to::

Edit: Just tried to follow the instructions on how to wet brine a ham, and the recipe calls for twice the amount of salt, Cure # 1 and brine time (45 days) than the recipe on the back of a LEM cure package. I tried to do some more research online, learned there is very little amount of consistency in recipes for curing hams, but everything was close to the LEM cure than the book. Very confused now.::

Then the page in the book with the bacon recipe i was going to use at my restaurant.

 

[DanMcG]

I guess that's why I stick to dry cures and an occasional injected cure.

 

[JC in GB]

Hi, thank you..can you help me with this recipe though. I'm sick on it. From Stanley marianski's book. For 11 pounds of meat. Now I'm just using the scale I'm comfortable with here so don't pick that apart.
1 gallon 60 degree salinity water
81g cure #1
That seems very strong right? Will that make you sick?
Do you have this book or know someone who has used this recipe from it?
I have read that chapter over and over trying to see of i have missed something. Is the cure"1 high because the water is added into the total weight? But then the salt level is st total saturation. And it says to leave it for 10 days. That seems to me like it would be way too long. That the end product would be too salty . I appreciate all the help but I really need to understand this recipe here.

A high sal brine is used to shorten cure times. It is far easier for the home processor to simply use equilibrium brining.

I have the Marianski book. He also describes an equilibrium method of brining.

An equilibrium approach uses the combined weight of meat and water to calculate the brine strength. When cure is completed, meat and solution should have equal amounts of salt, sugar, cure.

I have used this simple formula for most of my cured meats. This works with dry brine, submersed brine, and injected brine.

Remember to subtract cure weight from salt.

Dry brine:

1) Select salt percentage ( I like 1.85%)
2) Select sugar percentage ( I am using 2% for this brine)
3) Weigh meat
4) For each kg of meat add 16 g salt, 2.5 g cure #1, and 20 g of sugar
5) bag and brine in fridge for 10 - 14 days rinse and smoke

Wet brine:

1) Select % of water to meat you will be using. (10% for this demo)
2) Weigh meat
3) Add weight of meat and water together (Example 1 kg of meat with 10% water = 100 grams water)
4) Using percentage from dry brine example above calculate cure, sugar and salt amounts
5) 1100 grams = (2.75 g cure #1, 17.6 g salt, 22 g sugar)
6) Bag and pour brine over meat, seal bag, brine for 10 - 14 days and smoke

Injection brine:

1) Select % of water to meat you will be using. (10% for this demo)
2) Weigh meat
3) Add weight of meat and water together (Example 1 kg of meat with 10% water = 100 grams water)
4) Using percentage from dry brine example above calculate cure, sugar and salt amounts
5) 1100 grams = (2.75 g cure #1, 17.6 g salt, 22 g sugar) Mix this with the 100 grams of water.
6) Inject meat all over taking care to get brine in the center of the meat.
7) Bag and brine 4 - 10 days, smoke.

NOTE: your brine on its own will have a very high salt content but will equalize over time with the meat through a procedure similar to osmosis.

JC

 

[PolishDeli]

The pick-up equation is the correct one for everything other than the smallest cuts of meat, as per the USDA guidelines.
I'll post my excel-based calculator later.
It let's you select the type of cure so you can compare recipes.
Which equation gets used in a recipie is rarely specified, and is the reason that numbers are all over the place.

In your last post you talk about pump and liquid brining over a 1 day period, etc. I don't know if the book is explaining some of that process and magic like that or not.

Most of the info in Marianski's book can be found on his website.
The cure time estimates are based on the information he provides here:
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/hams

Key takeaways for arriving at ~1day/pound:

● About 3 ½ to 4 days per pound for 20 lbs. hams and picnics.

● 3 days per pound for smaller cuts.

● Those curing times were practiced in the past when preservation was the main concern...Those times may be shortened by 1 day per pound.

● These times may be be cut in half by injecting the meat with pickel.

So, ~(3-1)/2= ~1

There was a member here by the name of “Wade” who had a laboratory test done on Pop’s version of cure

It'd be interesting to follow-up on this analysis. But as it stands, those numbers have to be tossed.

The fresh brine was measured to be 252 ppm?

The solution was prepared using cure#1, i.e., a known quantity of NaNO2.
1oz cure#1 to 1 gal water would be about 450ppm.

With an error close to 50%, something is very wrong.
Bad scale?
Wrong measuring spoon?
Equipment out of calibration?
Reporting error?
Bad batch of cure#1? ...

EDIT: Numbers look legit. SmokinEdge posted link to report below.

 

[SmokinEdge]

It'd be interesting to followup on this analysis. But as it stands, those numbers have to be tossed.

The fresh brine was measured to be 252 ppm?

The solution was prepared using cure#1, i.e., a known quantity of NaNO2.
1oz cure#1 to 1 gal water would be about 450ppm.

With an error close to 50%, something is very wrong.
Bad scale?
Wrong measuring spoon?
Equipment out of calibration?
Reporting error?
Bad batch of cure#1? ...

Pops stated that to get 1 oz. in a Tbs, you must HEAP it, we are looking for 28 grams. It is possible to do but you have to work that measuring spoon like a muck stick to get it. Pops always state 1 Tbs. and that, leveled off, is about 17 grams. This is the problem everyone has mixing stated weight as a volumetric measure. In curing meat I prefer to weigh my cure, salt, and sugar.

Wade stated that the cure #1 he applied to the gallon of water was 1 Tbs and listed the weight at 17 grams. That should put the brine at 282ppm, but the lab reported the brine at 252ppm. Either a misprint or the brine had disippated between the time of mixing and being sent to the lab. I don’t know.

 

[SmokinEdge]

P PolishDeli
Here is a link to Wade’s findings. Happy reading.

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/immersion-bacon-curing-lab-test-results.181560/

 

[PolishDeli]

brine at 282ppm, but the lab reported the brine at 252ppm

Thanks for following up.
10% error - no big deal. To be expected.

Here is a link to Wade’s findings. Happy reading.

Interesting! thanks for postings the link. That’s probably the most thorough comparison between equilibrium vs pick-up I’ve seen. Can’t really argue with that analysis.

His quantitative conclusions are a bit different than what I’ve seen with semi-quantitative methods. But Wades method certainly seem more sophisticated than mine.
Also; Pops did stress that brine strength is what matters; and brine volume does not. Pops’ qualitative observation is in contrast with Wades data. Not knocking anyone; just an interesting data point.

The questions/comments I have are:
(1) What section of the meat was used to test cure levels. Outer most? Inner most?
(2) He did not inject the meat? That can have an impact on final cure levels since diffusion flux depends on concentration gradient. By injecting, you decrease the concentration gradient more quickly thereby decreasing the driving force for diffusion.
(3) That is a substantial weight gain.
(4) What analysis method was used?

You can always play it safe by splitting the difference.
daveomak 's method does this. It operates at the mathematical cross-over point between the two techniques.

Excellent work by Wade; thanks again for posting the link.