MES30 and too much smoke from AMPS

[daricksta]

 
Ya know it may have been me, I tell folks that meat is most suceptible to absorbing smoke from 100 to 140 degrees (IT) which I have read in numerous places including I believe a post by Jeff. But I also elaborate that the meat will still take some smoke but at a diminished capacaity above and below the prime rate.

It is my understanding that the meat must be warmed for the pores to open to accept the maxium smoke absorption which I can completely understand, and somewhere around 140 to 150 these pore start rendering or giving off fatty fluids which inhibit the smoke absorption, the higher the temp the more rendered. Plus there is only so much room to add smoke, when there is too much, is when people start shouting creosote even though its only too much smoke.

AMPs was engineered and designed to allow for the max. amount of allowable smoke to be used without over smoking. I think I said that well! I serious do not believe that an AMPs when used as directed could ever over smoke a meat. It is a small continious smolder, if you are smoking both ends at the same time I still doubt it could over smoke. Now if you would like less smoke flavor on your meat load less in the tray.

Smoking a butt for 20 hours of cooking, I just don't see the point personally, but many folks have the idea because of what they have seen someone do that because the wood was smoking to cook the meat that the smoke was needed. To each their own, its the nice thing about smoking. You learn to smoke and bend your smokers will to accomplish the finished product you want, the way you want to cook it. That way we get plenty of experience, to gain that much needed knowledge and become wise enough to not need foils, digital thermometers, etc., and still know enough to be able to use them when needed.

I am buying chips, chunks, splits, or pellets and I'd just rather not use what I feel is not needed. Thats why I own and use AMP's when I am done smoking I can close the vent on the smoker which removes the oxygen as well as the draft thru, the AMPs shuts down and I can use that remaining in the try on my next smoke if I didn't time it out right.

To the topic, you can not over smoke with an AMPs even if you tried, the available oxygen and the available inline fuel would not support it.

When I first read this I thought it was posted by Bear since I didn't notice your nick, Foamheart. Sorry.

Isn't It a good idea to rub the meat or otherwise season the outside (and inject if that's what you want to do) and leave it on a wire rack in the kitchen for about an hour before placing it in the smoker? This dries out the meat surface and warms the meat up enough to cook faster and better except the smoke, I believe. Leaving it at room temp for 60 minutes while the smoker preheats is still keeping the meat out of the danger zone.

 

[foamheart]

If you are going to rub, season using and oil or mustard what is the point? It can't form a pellicle.

If you are trying to change the temperature, remember the 4-140 rule, you are lossing smoking time to accomplish this, althought I realize you are starting at a more opportune IT.

But this is another topic of discussion.

 

[Bearcarver]

Ricksta,

Some of your questions answered.

I just about only use Hickory, so my leftover pellets can go right back in the Jug they came out of.

If I used different flavors, I would probably start a special jug to put all kinds of leftover pellets in, and use it now & then.

I no longer buy chunks or splits---Stopped that 4 years ago, and gave my supply to my Son for his Large BGE.

Ribs wouldn't be a good test because they usually get foiled at 2 or 3 hours.

My butts don't get to 160* IT until probably at least 5 or 6 hours.

This has been tested by many, and the only one I've heard say that meat stops taking smoke at 3 hours is that 20 year instructor.

Could be the old story-----

If you can---Do.

If you can't----Teach.

Bear

 

[Bearcarver]

 
When I first read this I thought it was posted by Bear since I didn't notice your nick, Foamheart. Sorry.

Isn't It a good idea to rub the meat or otherwise season the outside (and inject if that's what you want to do) and leave it on a wire rack in the kitchen for about an hour before placing it in the smoker? This dries out the meat surface and warms the meat up enough to cook faster and better except the smoke, I believe. Leaving it at room temp for 60 minutes while the smoker preheats is still keeping the meat out of the danger zone.

How do you know it would be out of the Danger Zone in 4 hours?

What temp are you using to get to 140* in 3 hours, after 1 hour sitting on counter.

Here's my Pork Butt that went straight from fridge to smoker @ 220*.

Take a look at it-----Took 4 1/4 hours to get to 124* IT-------5 1/4 hours to get to 137*.

That's why I don't inject or temp probe before 3 hours in, or set my meat around the house before putting it in the smoker.

Check my time notes:

Pulled Boston Pork Butt  

Bear

 

[daricksta]

 
How do you know it would be out of the Danger Zone in 4 hours?

What temp are you using to get to 140* in 3 hours, after 1 hour sitting on counter.

Here's my Pork Butt that went straight from fridge to smoker @ 220*.

Take a look at it-----Took 4 1/4 hours to get to 124* IT-------5 1/4 hours to get to 137*.

That's why I don't inject or temp probe before 3 hours in, or set my meat around the house before putting it in the smoker.

Check my time notes:

Pulled Boston Pork Butt  

Bear

Bear, before I write anything else, I must first write that I'm keeping your port butt recipe. Haven't cooked one myself yet but it's on the to-do list.

I miswrote: the 1 hour sit time on the rack is for steaks only that are to be grilled, broiled, or fried in a pan or on a flat top. The salt keeps any bacteria from forming during that hour inside or out (since the salt draws out moisture and even if the internal temp drops below 140 degrees it's been there for less than an hour and the steak will be cooking at over 500 degrees anyway.

Where I was mistaken was applying this to roasts and larger cuts of meat where I agree with you about the dangers of not getting the temp back up to 140 within four hours. But what confuses me about temps is that when pro chefs cook steaks or burgers ground from chuck or sirloin or brisket or pork whatever, they serve it at an internal temp of 135-138 for medium rare. If that temp is not hot enough to kill latent bacteria, why do they do it? I see rare-to-medium rare burgers and steaks being served by celebrity chefs all the time on TV.

 

[waywardswede]

But what confuses me about temps is that when pro chefs cook steaks or burgers ground from chuck or sirloin or brisket or whatever, they serve it at an internal temp of 135-138 for medium rare. If that temp is not hot enough to kill latent bacteria, why do they do it? I see rare-to-medium rare burgers and steaks being served by celebrity chefs all the time on TV.

It's the 4 hours part of the rule.  If it took 4 hours to get a hamburger or steak to 135, or if you let it sit at 135 for 4 hours after cooking, you would give the nasty critters enough time to get a foothold.  Because you're eating it in less than 4 hours they don't have time to get going.  That's why you should refrigerate any leftovers to get the temp back below 40 as soon as you can, and don't let the stuff sit on the counter while you're kicking back after dinner.

 

[daricksta]

 
It's the 4 hours part of the rule.  If it took 4 hours to get a hamburger or steak to 135, or if you let it sit at 135 for 4 hours after cooking, you would give the nasty critters enough time to get a foothold.  Because you're eating it in less than 4 hours they don't have time to get going.  That's why you should refrigerate any leftovers to get the temp back below 40 as soon as you can, and don't let the stuff sit on the counter while you're kicking back after dinner.

This is my basic understanding of it,. Wayward. But I still wonder about the safety of eating beef cooked to below 140 degrees from an E.coli contamination perspective. Depending on the cattle raising or slaughterhouse environment and practices, whole sides of beef or steaks and roasts could contain E. coli so any meat dish made from these meats would be infested with those live little buggers and they would remain alive below the minimum 140 degrees and so contracting a food borne illness would be a possibility. I've heard of cooking a steak to 135 degrees and letting it set for a carryover temp of 138 for medium rare but the steaks and burgers I see on TV food shows like more like rare than medium rare so aren't they all taking a chance on poisoning themselves and their diners if by chance they were cooking up contaminated meat--operative word being "if"?

 

[waywardswede]

Yes.  Which is why you see meat recalls, and disclaimers in restaurants saying you shouldn't be eating food that isn't cooked thoroughly.  But I don't like well-done beef, so I choose to live on the edge and (as misplaced as it may be) have some faith in the USDA and meat inspectors.  It's a personal choice, and a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[daricksta]

 
Yes.  Which is why you see meat recalls, and disclaimers in restaurants saying you shouldn't be eating food that isn't cooked thoroughly.  But I don't like well-done beef, so I choose to live on the edge and (as misplaced as it may be) have some faith in the USDA and meat inspectors.  It's a personal choice, and a risk I'm willing to take.

The favorite steak and beef roast doneness for my son and I is medium rare and I prefer my burgers cooked medium with some pink. The wife prefers everything medium well just like daddy used to cook it.

 

[daricksta]

 
Ricksta,

Some of your questions answered.

I just about only use Hickory, so my leftover pellets can go right back in the Jug they came out of.

If I used different flavors, I would probably start a special jug to put all kinds of leftover pellets in, and use it now & then.

I no longer buy chunks or splits---Stopped that 4 years ago, and gave my supply to my Son for his Large BGE.

Ribs wouldn't be a good test because they usually get foiled at 2 or 3 hours.

My butts don't get to 160* IT until probably at least 5 or 6 hours.

This has been tested by many, and the only one I've heard say that meat stops taking smoke at 3 hours is that 20 year instructor.

Could be the old story-----

If you can---Do.

If you can't----Teach.

Bear

Can't say about the teacher but he knew more than I do. Just curious, can you taste the difference in taste between different wood pellets used in a MES? I've got every wood pellet "flavor" for every meat and occasion but I'm not sure if I would know the difference and of course it makes it harder when I custom blend them just for experimentation. But with professionally smoked food I can tell the difference between the hardwoods used for smoking.

 

[daricksta]

 
If you are going to rub, season using and oil or mustard what is the point? It can't form a pellicle.

If you are trying to change the temperature, remember the 4-140 rule, you are lossing smoking time to accomplish this, althought I realize you are starting at a more opportune IT.

But this is another topic of discussion.

As I wrote to Bear, I realized that it was steaks only that are covered with salt and left out for an hour before grilling.

Pellicle! That was what the teacher said that forms on meat surfaces after 3 hours of smoking which blocks the further absorption of smoke. This is what I was trying to explain to Bear but couldn't remember the term. And I have also been going over the 4-140 rule, which I do follow.

Again, I was mistaken about the application dry and wet rubs to meats and letting them sit out. The rubs are for ribs, chicken, briskets--meats where you want the rubs to both flavor the meat and form an outside crust or bark. However, I do take all meats out before I grill or smoke them to let the IT warm up a beat, typically 30 minutes in advance.

 

[foamheart]

I don't mind grilling hamburgers, maybe throwing some chips down in the coals while the meat is on, but as to smoking ground meat, no way Jose. I would no more do a hamburger than a fatty. Its just me. Funny thing, I have no problem nibbling a piece of raw ground meat I have ground. I believe that there is a distinct difference between the meats/cuts that I should grill and what I will smoke. Adventurous in my younger days, I pretty much used up most of my luck, and for some strange reason I don't seem to bounce back up again quite so fast these days. Food poisioning put me down for a solid week during boot camp, that pretty much was at my prime and now, even though thought sorta scares me.

Its just me and my rule, each person must set their own boundaries. I see ground meat from the market were its already oxidized the meat, or the blood has dropped, well......... I just feel safer and I know I like the flavors better when I grind my own. Besides I don't make enough sausage to alone justify even an inexpensive meat grinder. You would be amazed at the difference in taste and quality. You can make ground meat to the percentage you want, while adding flavors like ground bacon to it...OMG thats good stuff.

You roll the dice everytime you eat, if you roll wrong on that 1 in 10,000 that you finially got, food poisoning is not a happy place to me. Believe me! You never know when its your number, so you must treat everytime like its that one.

TV Chefs are inspirational, resturant Chefs are in a completely different atmosphere and have minimum wage helpers. Tiger Woods makes golf look easy too.

Its just easier for me to grill some foods, hamburgers, hotdogs, sausages, steaks, fajitis, etc.....

 

[daricksta]

 
Ricksta,

Some of your questions answered.

I just about only use Hickory, so my leftover pellets can go right back in the Jug they came out of.

If I used different flavors, I would probably start a special jug to put all kinds of leftover pellets in, and use it now & then.

I no longer buy chunks or splits---Stopped that 4 years ago, and gave my supply to my Son for his Large BGE.

Ribs wouldn't be a good test because they usually get foiled at 2 or 3 hours.

My butts don't get to 160* IT until probably at least 5 or 6 hours.

This has been tested by many, and the only one I've heard say that meat stops taking smoke at 3 hours is that 20 year instructor.

Could be the old story-----

If you can---Do.

If you can't----Teach.

Bear

Foamheart wrote the magic word that I forgot below: pellicle! The instructor said that through chemical/enzyme reaction it takes about 3 hours for the pellicle to form on the outside of the meat and it's this pellicle that closes off the meat to further smoke absorption. But from chatting with you and from other reading, this is at best a general statement and not a hard and fast guideline. The biggest hole in his theory is that the variations--as you pointed out--in size and thickness of the meat and in the cooking temps will also vary when this pellicle forms and how solid it is and now much of the meat surface it covers. Pellicle--who could forget a word like that?

 

[foamheart]

 
As I wrote to Bear, I realized that it was steaks only that are covered with salt and left out for an hour before grilling.

Pellicle! That was what the teacher said that forms on meat surfaces after 3 hours of smoking which blocks the further absorption of smoke. This is what I was trying to explain to Bear but couldn't remember the term. And I have also been going over the 4-140 rule, which I do follow.

Again, I was mistaken about the application dry and wet rubs to meats and letting them sit out. The rubs are for ribs, chicken, briskets--meats where you want the rubs to both flavor the meat and form an outside crust or bark. However, I do take all meats out before I grill or smoke them to let the IT warm up a beat, typically 30 minutes in advance.

I would have to question the teachers knowledge. Politely of course.

Pellicle is good, its like sticky glue to get that smoke to stick upon. It is a yellowish tacky substance that forms from the slight dehydration of fat carrying skins and meats. Mr. Todd, aka Woodcutter taught me about the importance of pellicle. Who says old dogs can't learn? But he forms his with 30 mins of applied fan. After trying his way I bought cheap fan to use (it was like 10.00 at Newegg on sale). I normally try to allow fowl to set in the reefer for 24 hours uncovered to dry the skin and that will normally do it, but as with loins, that fan works wonders.

Set the meat out? I do the same, I normally set my meat out, then go start and prep the smoker, come back and prep my meat, then check the smoker and add the meat .Unless its a pork butt or Brisket which are long low and slow cooks. It all comes from the old days from steaks. if you have a steak and grill it, you have 3.5 hours till worry about the the rule with a 30 min. grill time (more like 7 to 9 mins...LOL) It helps with the fat on the steak (being from the south we like fat), but I am starting to believe what is good for the fat may not be good for the muscle. The cold center may help that med. rare pink to last longer. Neighbor grills his steaks partially frozen to ensure a cold center.

You might do your own study, I have drawn a different conclusion about fowl and rubs which seems correct. Spices and herbs can not travel thru skin due to the oils there in. You can flavor the meat under the skin, or in the cavity or by brines and injections. But I don't understand how a rub can get thru the skin to the meat. Since that skin doesn't need a candy coating to hold moisture thru a low and slow cook. I don't see that it is doing anything but sitting on the skin.

 

[foamheart]

I spell on a 6 year old level, which is only exceeded ny my typing, its a 4 year old level. Pellicle is a bitch to remember how to spell....ROFLMAO.

 

[daricksta]

 
I don't mind grilling hamburgers, maybe throwing some chips down in the coals while the meat is on, but as to smoking ground meat, no way Jose. I would no more do a hamburger than a fatty. Its just me. Funny thing, I have no problem nibbling a piece of raw ground meat I have ground. I believe that there is a distinct difference between the meats/cuts that I should grill and what I will smoke. Adventurous in my younger days, I pretty much used up most of my luck, and for some strange reason I don't seem to bounce back up again quite so fast these days. Food poisioning put me down for a solid week during boot camp, that pretty much was at my prime and now, even though thought sorta scares me.

Its just me and my rule, each person must set their own boundaries. I see ground meat from the market were its already oxidized the meat, or the blood has dropped, well......... I just feel safer and I know I like the flavors better when I grind my own. Besides I don't make enough sausage to alone justify even an inexpensive meat grinder. You would be amazed at the difference in taste and quality. You can make ground meat to the percentage you want, while adding flavors like ground bacon to it...OMG thats good stuff.

You roll the dice everytime you eat, if you roll wrong on that 1 in 10,000 that you finially got, food poisoning is not a happy place to me. Believe me! You never know when its your number, so you must treat everytime like its that one.

TV Chefs are inspirational, resturant Chefs are in a completely different atmosphere and have minimum wage helpers. Tiger Woods makes golf look easy too.

Its just easier for me to grill some foods, hamburgers, hotdogs, sausages, steaks, fajitis, etc.....

I didn't mean to imply that I smoked burgers, I was just talking generically about cooking with cuts of meat. Unlike you, I can't see nibbling on a bit of raw ground cow, but I agree there's a difference between meat for grilling or roasting and meat for smoking. The one beef exception is smoking a chuck roast as a chuckie, something Bear introduced me to but I've yet to try. Of course beef and pork ribs can also be cooked in various ways, too.

I can relate to food poisoning. My wife and I drove out to a beautiful B&B by a river in a tourist town last month for our 29th wedding anniversary. The first evening was all fun and romance--until I came down with food poisoning the next morning which lasted into the night and was somewhat abated by the next day when we left. The suite itself remained romantic and we vow to take another crack at it for our 30th wedding anniversary next year. I might even have ingested the little nasty at a restaurant in town before we left for our weekend. Since my wife is a licensed home daycare provider and provides up to four meals a day for 6-12 kids at a time, she--and I--have completed a food safety class and each have food handler's licenses. So I know all the food safety concepts and remember most of them; my wife however knows and remembers all of them.

I agree about the quality of supermarket ground beef. It turns brown much sooner than it did years ago. You also never know if the meat department replaced old sell by dates on the packages with newer ones to make it appear the meat was fresher--I've seen a few stories on that. About 2-3 years ago I bought a fantastic meat grinder online because the grinder attachment to my wife's stand mixer wasn't cutting it. The most exotic I've gotten has been grinding boneless beef chuck roast and boneless pork shoulder (or boneless country ribs) and blending them together for burger meat. Next time I'm going to use brisket instead of chuck. Ground bacon? I've mixed in bacon bits and grated cheddar into burger meat for years but ground bacon is an idea. Do you partially freeze the bacon slices before running them through the grinder? Do you use bacon or whole pork belly? Yeah, I love the creativity with burgers but in my case, I rarely grind because it's time consuming and it's much quicker and less messy to just take out some supermarket ground beef and go to town. We're short on time in our house but still, every time I've ground my own burger or meatball mix the taste, texture, and tenderness have been superior to anything I bought at the store.

I agree about TV chefs and it's also why I think all those cooking contest shows are shams. Taste is highly subjective so submitting dishes to a panel of judges with different palates is meaningless, just like one food critic may pan a restaurant while another might praise it. Same thing with judging wines for medal competitions: meaningless except for marketing bragging rights for the winning wines. We've bought a few celebrity chef cookbooks but we got most of our recipes from specialty magazines and, for me, smoker and grilling cookbooks. I'm not the kind of guy who can create recipes on the fly but I do know how to adapt and tweak and think "what if I add this?" My family aren't big hot dog/sausage fans so for the times when they are I cook them either broil them or cook them on a grill pan or in my Panini press. For fajitas--darn right, nothing like making fajitas from chargrilled skirt or flank steak.

I have to say that I enjoy using my MES but I love my Weber kettle grill. There's something satisfyingly primal about grilling meat, fish, and vegies/fruit over charcoal. I know the Weber far better than I do the MES and grilling is more hands-on than smoking. It's also easier to clean out my grill than clean out the smoker. I also like to toss wood chips over the coals for a shot of wood smoke to chicken and pizza. It's been an abnormally dry and hot summer in WA state this year so I'm grilling more now than I have during any past summer. This weekend I'm breaking out the smoker since no rain is in sight through next week.

 

[Bearcarver]

Ricksta,

To answer a couple of your questions:

If that instructor really said Pellicle clocks smoke, he should go back to school. Pellicle doesn't block smoke---It helps smoke to adhere. I get it either by putting it in front of fans, or putting it in the fridge overnight, uncovered, and then put it in the smoker without smoke, @ low heat for an hour or so.

I see no problem with letting a steak set out, but I personally don't because I want the outside charred, and the inside pink (Med--Rare). Letting it sit out helps get the inside to cook more. Some people even partially freeze their steaks to get this effect.

I wouldn't let any large low & slow non-cured item sit out for any amount of time, & I wouldn't let ground meat sit out either.

Hope this helps,

Bear

 

[daricksta]

 
I would have to question the teachers knowledge. Politely of course.

Pellicle is good, its like sticky glue to get that smoke to stick upon. It is a yellowish tacky substance that forms from the slight dehydration of fat carrying skins and meats. Mr. Todd, aka Woodcutter taught me about the importance of pellicle. Who says old dogs can't learn? But he forms his with 30 mins of applied fan. After trying his way I bought cheap fan to use (it was like 10.00 at Newegg on sale). I normally try to allow fowl to set in the reefer for 24 hours uncovered to dry the skin and that will normally do it, but as with loins, that fan works wonders.

Set the meat out? I do the same, I normally set my meat out, then go start and prep the smoker, come back and prep my meat, then check the smoker and add the meat .Unless its a pork butt or Brisket which are long low and slow cooks. It all comes from the old days from steaks. if you have a steak and grill it, you have 3.5 hours till worry about the the rule with a 30 min. grill time (more like 7 to 9 mins...LOL) It helps with the fat on the steak (being from the south we like fat), but I am starting to believe what is good for the fat may not be good for the muscle. The cold center may help that med. rare pink to last longer. Neighbor grills his steaks partially frozen to ensure a cold center.

You might do your own study, I have drawn a different conclusion about fowl and rubs which seems correct. Spices and herbs can not travel thru skin due to the oils there in. You can flavor the meat under the skin, or in the cavity or by brines and injections. But I don't understand how a rub can get thru the skin to the meat. Since that skin doesn't need a candy coating to hold moisture thru a low and slow cook. I don't see that it is doing anything but sitting on the skin.

prep/cooking
Question away because I now am. Glad it was my daughter who paid for the class and not me. However some of the prep/cooking techniques we were shown were worth taking the course for. He said other things that I didn't agree with, some sexist and political stuff. He also thought that Foster Farms was being victimized by the USDA just for being a large corporation. He claimed that all chicken contains the salmonella bacteria and the people who got food poisoning just failed to cook their chicken to a safe temp. I silently questioned that assumption when he said it, but it was his class and he felt he could say whatever he wanted.

Another new thing I just learned from you: Todd's nick is Woodcutter. I've never seen him post under that. In fact, I rarely see him post at all here and it's always under his name when I see it.

Again, I see I was wrong about rubs getting deep down inside the meat (this is a bad morning for my memory).  They don't which is why the meat muscle is injected flavored liquid before cooking.

I've just begun experimenting with injections, but the one time my wife and I brined a turkey we didn't like the result much at all. The BBQ instructor claimed, though, that the brine enables you to brine a bird for a few days without refrigeration because bacteria can't grow in a saline environment and salt has been used for that purpose to cure and safely store meat for thousands of years. The latter is definitely true but I'm not sure about brining liquid killing almost all bacteria resident in a bird carcass.

I love charring the fat on the outside of a steak. if it renders enough I will eat it--cholesterol be damned! As for grilling meat partially frozen in the center, I've read (outside of the BBQ class that could meat can inhibit the chemical reactions inside of smoking or grilling meats which help break down the meat fibers which is how meat becomes tender. Cooking meat that is too cold can result in a tougher and less flavorful product. Don't have on hand where I read it but it was recent. I think I saw it when I was researching smoking and grilling meat techniques.

And I haven't seen any misspellings--and I'm a spelling/grammar geek.

 

[daricksta]

 
It's the 4 hours part of the rule.  If it took 4 hours to get a hamburger or steak to 135, or if you let it sit at 135 for 4 hours after cooking, you would give the nasty critters enough time to get a foothold.  Because you're eating it in less than 4 hours they don't have time to get going.  That's why you should refrigerate any leftovers to get the temp back below 40 as soon as you can, and don't let the stuff sit on the counter while you're kicking back after dinner.

The wife and I both let leftover cooked food cool down to the temp where it's safe to put it in storage containers and place in the fridge.

 

[waywardswede]

 The BBQ instructor claimed, though, that the brine enables you to brine a bird for a few days without refrigeration because bacteria can't grow in a saline environment and salt has been used for that purpose to cure and safely store meat for thousands of years

Oh, man, don't do this.  I brine poultry all the time, but always keep the temperature between 36° and 40° F.  Theoretically he may be right, but there is no way I would try this myself, or recommend to anyone else to try it.  Eating a medium-rare steak is one thing, eating a turkey that's been stewing in room temperature salt water for 2 days is a whole new level of crazy.