MES tripping GFCI

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Hi, GRCI's are not as mysterious as they sometimes are thought of they are very simple in theory. All they do is measure The power (amperage) that goes out on the Hot wire and then what comes back on the neutral or white wire. That is the slightly wider prong on the plug. If there is any difference (4 to 6 Milliampers) it trips the receptacle. It figures the lost amperage has gone to ground.

Good common sense should always prevail. Any damage to the cord should be repaired prior to use.

Saying this is like having a warning label on a gun barrel or on a pack of cigarettes.

Just to get a feel for what low levels it trips at you may feel 1ma (a tingle)  at 4-6 the GfCI trips and at 10 ma you can still let go but at 15 ma you hang on and it goes on from there. Most of us will survive a encounter of 30ma. From there up amperage causes damage .Remember that electricity is harder on children than adults.

I hope this helps   Jted

Edit of the post.

I just read WaOauu post. I guess we were writing at the same time. He is correct It can sense moisture but that is not it's main function.
I heard 6ma kills but it depends on which appendage is hot and which is grounded.  Like right hand to left hand across the chest is the worst.

-Kurt
 
I heard 6ma kills but it depends on which appendage is hot and which is grounded.  Like right hand to left hand across the chest is the worst.

-Kurt
This section form a Wikipedia article has some great numbers:

Factors That Affect Lethality of Electric Shock

Wikipedia is obviously not an authoritative source, but this appears to me to be pretty accurate.

BTW, since my last post a few hours ago, I moved my MES inside (threat of rain), and looked carefully at where the cord enters the box. It sure doesn't look very water tight.

Also, as a follow up to my previous advice about checking whether your electric outlet enclosure is keeping out water, I decided to open up the new box that I put in two months ago when I replaced the GFI next to my smoker & BBQ. As soon as I loosened the screws, water came pouring out. After killing the circuit breaker, I opened it up and reaslized my mistake: I had replaced the box, but not the cover, and the cover's gasket had failed.

So, I now have a new cover on my box. To make it even more watertight, I put electrician's tape around where the faceplate meets the box, and I also Velcro'd a disposable plastic container over the entire box. You can see the result in this pic:

 
 
I heard 6ma kills but it depends on which appendage is hot and which is grounded.  Like right hand to left hand across the chest is the worst.

-Kurt
Hi, I decided to check my recollection about the effects of electricity on the human body. Remembering we are all different I found this chart on the net. it is from Science based life.

https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/how-much-voltage-can-you-take-on-before-you-die/
Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3]
CurrentReaction
1 milliampJust a faint tingle.
5 milliampsSlight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries.
6-25 milliamps (women)†
9-30 milliamps (men)
Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.”
50-150 milliampsExtremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flex or muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible.
1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps)Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely.
10,000 milliamps (10 amps)Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable.
All of this depends on the age of the person. The elderly and very young are at the most risk.
 
 
I sure wish I could get my hands on a smoker that did this so I can do some testing on it.  We know it is rated at 15 amps, Ohms law tells us that R resistance is E over I and we know E is 120 volts

120 volts divided by 15 amps is 8 ohms. The resistance of the heating element will be around 8 ohms depending on its use.   I would open the back of the unit ( >>>WITH ALL POWER REMOVED ! <<< )  and remove all the wires on the heating element and check its resistance and check for  > any < resistance from both ends of the heating element to ground, there should be none.  then put the wires back on the heating element one at a time and check for resistance to ground again, from both ends of the heating element.

are you using wood chips or pellets ?  When we first started we used the chips and found that they can touch the heating element and there was resistance to ground through the wood.  Your GFI outlet is built so it will trip ( to keep you safe ) if there is any voltage on the green ground wire.  When we changed to the pellets we no longer had a problem with it tripping

what happens if you remove the green wire on the power cord at the smoker ? ( be sure all power is REMOVED when you work with any of the wires <<< )  Does it still trip ?  Oh so many things I want to check ((>>>>> BE SURE ! to put the green wire BACK ! <<<<<  where it was)

I would try to plug it in to a non GFI outlet and check for VOLTAGE from the smoker to ground, it may be a very small amount but start with the meter on the 120 or more scale and work your way down to the lowest range and see if there is any voltage.

If anyone with this problem does this please email me direct at     [email protected]      and let me know what you found out    >>please !!!! <<
I'm trying to find what is 15 amps your talking about.  My Mes 40 inch Gen 1 came with a 1200 watt element =10 amps ,12 Ohms and the Mes 30 inch is 800 watts = 6.667 amps, 18 Ohms.  I maybe missing some dialogue.

-Kurt
 
The 15 amp rating means that it can be plugged into a circuit protected by a 15 amp circuit breaker. It does not say anything about how much power it actually draws. As I already posted, the measured consumption on my 30" MES is 777 watts, which is in close agreement with the 800 watt rating.

As for the resistance of the heating element, that would have to be measured indirectly because the resistance while cold will not be the same as the resistance while hot. If you need to know this value, you can use a variation of Ohm's law that relates to power:

Resistance = Voltage * Voltage / Power.

Normal USA Voltage is 120 volts, and the power is approximately 800 watts, so this gives us:

Resistance = (120 * 120) / 800 = 18 ohms

I knew that EE degree would eventually be useful ...
 
Based on your post it is highly likely that your heating element is shorted and using it without a GFCI is dangerous and could cause injury or death - you need to fix the smoker not bypass the safety equipment - disconnect the heating element and see if everything works correctly (which it probably will) - if it does then purchase a new heating element and install it

LN
 
If you can get an ohmmeter across the heating element (while unplugged, of course), you should get one of three readings: open (infinite resistance); shorted (resistance less than 1 ohm); or something else, probably in the 8-30 ohm range. The most likely failure mode, by far, is an open circuit. Most heating elements fail because the heating wire wears out, gets brittle, and breaks. Shorted heating elements sometimes happen with appliances that use coils (like clothes dryers, hair dryers, etc.) but they are usually not pure shorts because what happens is that the wire breaks and then touches something else.

If the unit is heating, however, the problem is not likely the heating element. I haven't read this whole thread, but I assume you did the logical thing of plugging it into another outlet. If it works there, then the problem is most likely a faulty GFI, as I already mentioned in a previous post.
 
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The original post stated that they had tried other outlets
 I can program in the target temp and the time just fine but as soon as it tries to turn on the heating element it trips the GFCI.  I have tried a different outlet and that one triped also. 
So I believe that the unit is dangerous to use and strongly recommend that they do not continue messing with it but get it fixed - given the nature of this forum communications it is not likely that a definitive answer will be given but it is clear that continuing to use it is dangerous so the suggestions to bypass the GCFI are very bad suggestions

trying it with the heating element disconnected is simple and will clearly show if it is the heating element or some other component
Based on your post it is highly likely that your heating element is shorted and using it without a GFCI is dangerous and could cause injury or death - you need to fix the smoker not bypass the safety equipment - disconnect the heating element and see if everything works correctly (which it probably will) - if it does then purchase a new heating element and install it
But the most important thing it to stop using it and replace it or get it fixed so no one gets electrocuted  

LN
 
They make an extended use weatherproof cover so you can leave the unit plugged in with the cover closed. Also use a GFCI that is weather resistant, as there are different grades of gfci's. If it still trips, I would just use a regular outlet and not be too concerned about it. More than likely it is what we call in my trade a nuisance trip. Don't lose any sleep over it.
 
 
The original post stated that they had tried other outlets

So I believe that the unit is dangerous to use and strongly recommend that they do not continue messing with it but get it fixed - given the nature of this forum communications it is not likely that a definitive answer will be given but it is clear that continuing to use it is dangerous so the suggestions to bypass the GCFI are very bad suggestions

trying it with the heating element disconnected is simple and will clearly show if it is the heating element or some other component

But the most important thing it to stop using it and replace it or get it fixed so no one gets electrocuted  

LN
 
If you can get an ohmmeter across the heating element (while unplugged, of course), you should get one of three readings: open (infinite resistance); shorted (resistance less than 1 ohm); or something else, probably in the 8-30 ohm range. The most likely failure mode, by far, is an open circuit. Most heating elements fail because the heating wire wears out, gets brittle, and breaks. Shorted heating elements sometimes happen with appliances that use coils (like clothes dryers, hair dryers, etc.) but they are usually not pure shorts because what happens is that the wire breaks and then touches something else.

If the unit is heating, however, the problem is not likely the heating element. I haven't read this whole thread, but I assume you did the logical thing of plugging it into another outlet. If it works there, then the problem is most likely a faulty GFI, as I already mentioned in a previous post.
John is right,, is there anything else on that circuit? If so unplug everything and that circuit so just the smoker is the only item....
 
 
The original post stated that they had tried other outlets

So I believe that the unit is dangerous to use and strongly recommend that they do not continue messing with it but get it fixed - given the nature of this forum communications it is not likely that a definitive answer will be given but it is clear that continuing to use it is dangerous so the suggestions to bypass the GCFI are very bad suggestions

trying it with the heating element disconnected is simple and will clearly show if it is the heating element or some other component

But the most important thing it to stop using it and replace it or get it fixed so no one gets electrocuted  

LN
 
If you can get an ohmmeter across the heating element (while unplugged, of course), you should get one of three readings: open (infinite resistance); shorted (resistance less than 1 ohm); or something else, probably in the 8-30 ohm range. The most likely failure mode, by far, is an open circuit. Most heating elements fail because the heating wire wears out, gets brittle, and breaks. Shorted heating elements sometimes happen with appliances that use coils (like clothes dryers, hair dryers, etc.) but they are usually not pure shorts because what happens is that the wire breaks and then touches something else.

If the unit is heating, however, the problem is not likely the heating element. I haven't read this whole thread, but I assume you did the logical thing of plugging it into another outlet. If it works there, then the problem is most likely a faulty GFI, as I already mentioned in a previous post.
Larry from time to time my MES 30 does trip the GFCI After doing some testing with my multimeter I determined there was no ground to the Box. I plugged the smoker into a regular receptacle and 30 min later when the box had got to temp I put it back on the GFCI and it did not trip. .Before you arbitrarily condemn the smoker some testing should be done.

Read johnmeyers posts and it is obvious he has a handle on the testing.

It is not uncommon for heating elements to soak up some moisture out of the air. Mine has not tripped since the humidly has dropped to under 50. 

A test I will run on mine next summer when it Trip's the GFCI is to remove the chip tray exposing the element and PLUG in a hair dryer and heat the element. It would be interesting if that removes the suspected moisture.
 
Quote:
Larry from time to time my MES 30 does trip the GFCI After doing some testing with my multimeter I determined there was no ground to the Box. I plugged the smoker into a regular receptacle and 30 min later when the box had got to temp I put it back on the GFCI and it did not trip. .Before you arbitrarily condemn the smoker some testing should be done.
<snip>
A test I will run on mine next summer when it Trip's the GFCI is to remove the chip tray exposing the element and PLUG in a hair dryer and heat the element. It would be interesting if that removes the suspected moisture.
One quick note on using a multimeter to measure resistance to ground as a way to determine if there really is a ground fault:

This actually may not find the problem. The multimeter uses direct current in order to make the resistance measurement. Also, it uses the very low voltage produced by a small battery cell, typically just a few volts. By contrast, the power line is 120 volts, and it is alternating current. AC current can be induced into another object, even without a direct electrical link. This is the principal behind how a transformer works, where two coils are placed close to each other, without any electrical contact, but through induction, a huge amount of current is transferred from one to the other.

So, you can have a ground fault that only happens with alternating current, and as a result, any leakage measurements must be made using alternating current.

In addition, higher voltage can break down insulators, even though that insulation works perfectly well at lower voltages. All sorts of electrical components are rated by the voltage they can withstand, from capacitors to those glass insulators you see on high voltage transmission lines. Go higher than that voltage, and the insulator breaks down, and current flows.

So, in a smoker, if there is some moisture or some insulation breakdown, the current those things allow might not show up until a large enough voltage is applied.

If you plug your smoker into more than one GFI, and it trips each one of them, then I would take that as a definitive sign that you really do have a ground fault in your smoker. You MUST then repair or replace your smoker.

The hairdryer on the heating element (and on the junction box where the cord comes in) is not a bad idea. You can't overheat the heating element of course, but care should be exercised when heating anything else with a hairdryer. Plastic melts pretty easily.
 
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Or you could forget all these remedies and do what i did. Build a firebox and run both heat and smoke through the wood chip port!
 
I have had the same problem with my electric smoker.  the smoker turns on and when the heater comes on for about 10 seconds, pow the gfci blows.  I have a sump pump that did the same thing and the solution was to use a heat gun to drive the moisture out of the cheap plastic electrical plug.  So I gave it a try today on my smoker and it seems to be working OK now.  I guess moisture gets into the cheap molded plug.  May not be the solution for you but it has worked on two items for me.

UPDATE 5-2016

Well!  the heating the plug trick only worked for about 2-3 hours and then it popped the GFI again??????
 
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Having just come across this thread, and not having read all 96 posts, I'll toss my 2 cents in. I had an MES 30 myself last year and had been just smoking along all spring when the 15A GFI just quit. It didn't trip and never had. I know a bit about electricity but absolutely nothing about GFI's so I called an electrician. He wound up replacing not only the GFI but 3 outlets on the circuit. He said that even though the MES operated at less than 15A, it ran hot enough that over time the circuit slowly cooked. The outlets he replaced were actually brown and a couple of the wires had melted insulation. Granted, now, the house is almost 30 years old and so is the wiring, so the smoker may not have been the culprit, just the camel's last straw.
GFIs are a whole different animal. Bite the bullet and call a professional to check it out. Your house is a big investment, in addition to your personal safety...
For what it's worth, I gave up the MES and went with propane, and though not as convenient and not being able to get the really low temps, I'm good.
Dan
(Let the attacks from the MES folks begin [emoji]128527[/emoji])
 
<snip> For what it's worth, I gave up the MES and went with propane, and though not as convenient and not being able to get the really low temps, I'm good.
Did you give up on the MES because of the electrical issues you described, or for some other reason? I am asking because I have a thread about why I am thinking of selling my MES, and I just wanted to find out if you had any issues with the quality of the smoking you were able to do.
 
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Did you give up on the MES because of the electrical issues you described, or for some other reason? I am asking because I have a thread about why I am thinking of selling my MES, and I just wanted to find out if you had any issues with the quality of the smoking you were able to do.
 
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