Lo-salt Cured and Smoked Turkey

[Bearcarver]

I read that Bear, but it doesn't say that the DQ is the same as prague #1. You know you have to spell it out for me. I clicked the link and it shows it as a pink salt, so I am to assume it is the same thing. I did miss the net bag thing though. Too much caffeine this morning. I have to go gather the last of my nuts today so I need a little extra energy.

You can wait for Pops on that, but I took it as all pink tinted, and I thought they were all pink, except TQ. I however am just going by what I read--I haven't had either yet, except TQ.

Pops will give you a more positive answer.

I saw Cabela's has those bags too. Probably more expensive, but I have one 30 miles from here--no shipping.

Bear

 

[smokingnd]

I clicked his link and that DQ looks a lot like my instacure #1, I have seen other recipes for doing this and they called for instaure #1.  I'm curious find out the answer.   Martin

 

[solaryellow]

It is the same thing as Instacure #1.
 

I clicked his link and that DQ looks a lot like my instacure #1, I have seen other recipes for doing this and they called for instaure #1.  I'm curious find out the answer.   Martin

 

[smokingnd]

So instacure #1 could be used for curing a turkey?  I saw someone else mention maybe using #2 for curing a turkey.  Similar stuff just that #2 is released slowly over time.

 

[pineywoods]

All pink tinted cures have the same sodium nitrite concentration, which is 6.25%. Prague Powder # 1, Insta-Cure, Modern Cure are all the same. The pink color is not what gives the meat a reddish hue - that is done by the curing process.

That includes DQ #1

 

[thebarbequeen]

Can there be a Wiki or added categary for health-specific recipes?  This is great information, Thanks Pops and so glad you're doing well.

 

[solaryellow]

Yes. I am not certain why bbally mentioned cure #2 in the other thread over cure #1. I used Pops' recipe above (the original version) about two weeks ago and it came out great.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/100266/cured-turkey
 

So instacure #1 could be used for curing a turkey?  I saw someone else mention maybe using #2 for curing a turkey.  Similar stuff just that #2 is released slowly over time.

 

[bbally]

Yes. I am not certain why bbally mentioned cure #2 in the other thread over cure #1. I used Pops' recipe above (the original version) about two weeks ago and it came out great.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/forum/thread/100266/cured-turkey
 

So instacure #1 could be used for curing a turkey?  I saw someone else mention maybe using #2 for curing a turkey.  Similar stuff just that #2 is released slowly over time.

 Instacure 1 is fine if you are going to use normal smoking temperatures and cure for less then five days.   And take the bird over the 140 mark and hold it for at least 10 minutes.

In the quote below you can see several problems with using cure #1:

5 to six days of cure time in the pickle, this is a concern because we must assume a frozen turkey is being thawed and cured.  Even if this was a fresh killed bird the day six is becoming a problem on any haccp plan.

The comment that make cure number 2 mandatory is the comment that we will slow smoke with an AMS for 8-10 hours "then cook the buzzard" which indicates a low temp smoke for way to long for cure one to be affective.  This kind of modification is taking the bird from a cure 1 recipe and subjecting it to cure 2 needs due to time temp considerations.

I am all for experimenting with recipes, I am not comfortable letting someone move into the danger zone for 8 to 10 hours without additional protection from food pathogens.  So to smoke a turkey for 8 to 10 hours them temperature will be very low or you will end up with a cinder for a product.  Cure two is a must or the smoke time must move from 8-10 hours to 4 to 6 hours with a minimum temp of 200 F while smoking.  Otherwise go cure to or meet your medical deductible.

I'm thinking about curing a turkey "wet brine". Here's the idea, thaw and rinse the turkey and place in a food grade bucket to place in the fridge. I'm thinking one cup of kosher salt per gallon of distilled water and use enough to cover the bird. The brine will have been premade and in the fridge cold.  Then I'm thinking about adding 1/4 tsp. pink salt per pound of turkey. I'm hoping to pickle the bird for at least 5-6 days. What do you think. I want to long smoke the bird with my AMS 8-10 hours before cooking the buzzard.  [\quote]  [\quote]

Cold smoking a turkey with an amaz n smoker at temperatures under 180 F will require the protection afforded by cure number 2.  With out the 0.64 percent sodium nitrate you are gambling when cold smoking a turkey for an extended period of time.

 

[pokey]

This thing is all new to me, and I'm totally confused. If one cures the turkey using #2, does that curing process result in turkey that is edible, or is the cold smoke necessarily followed by cooking? If so, then why cold smoke?

I'm planning to cure half a turkey for Bird-day. Can I use TQ for this? I know it's not low-salt, but I don't know how it fits in with this #1 vs #2 discussion. Looking at the Morton's curing guide, I believe they had a recipe for Turkey using TQ that cured for 24 hours (with injection).

TIA

 

[bbally]

This thing is all new to me, and I'm totally confused. If one cures the turkey using #2, does that curing process result in turkey that is edible, or is the cold smoke necessarily followed by cooking? If so, then why cold smoke?

I'm planning to cure half a turkey for Bird-day. Can I use TQ for this? I know it's not low-salt, but I don't know how it fits in with this #1 vs #2 discussion. Looking at the Morton's curing guide, I believe they had a recipe for Turkey using TQ that cured for 24 hours (with injection).

TIA

 One can use cure 1 or cure 2 or TQ for doing a turkey.  But each is used for specific smoking conditions.

Cure 1 for normal smoking temperatures 140 F to as high as you want to dare.

Cure 2 for long cure times, curing times of 4 to 6 days on turkeys that were frozen and thawed to then cure.  Or for cold smoking a turkey for cold service.

TenderQuick is not a cure, but a salt that gives meat cure properties.  Using tenderquick requires you to use all food safety time temp rules.  With the exception of doing fish.

Show the recipe of what you are thinking, there are plenty of people that can help you (myself included) make sure you are safe and understand the whys.

Problems with cure 1 and 2 confusion are based mostly on opinions from people who do not understand the real reasons for cure 2's use.  And that leads to lots of food poisoning problems every single year.

Making stuff with TQ is not curing.. it is following a recipe.  Making stuff that is hot finished with cure 1 is curing with a complete nitrite conversion gauranteed by temperature finish.

Making stuff with cure 2 is a high level curing method, you need to totally understand why and when it is called for if you are going to venture on your own.

As the temperature duration shows in the quote in my post above.... it is really easy to cross the line and think you are safe when you are not if you don't understand the principles of why and when.

 

[pokey]

Thanks, but forgive my denseness (density?). Per Mortons web site, TQ is:

"This mix is a fast cure product that has been developed as a cure for meat, poultry, game, salmon, shad, and sablefish. It is a combination of high grade salt and other quality curing ingredients that can be used for both dry and sweet pickle curing. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] mix contains salt, the main preserving agent; sugar, both sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite, curing agents that also contribute to development of color and flavor; and propylene glycol to keep the mixture uniform."

I thought that by having sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite it is a true cure, and by dilluting the trites and trates with salt that they are making the quantities to be used for smallish batches of meat more easily measured by those of us who are all thumbs. They also limit our ability to use less salt than what they call for.

Anyway, I was planning to cure half a bird with TQ mixed with brown sugar as per Morton's curing guide (I don't have it with me at work, so I can't get exact here). I recall them having a recipe that called for injection and cured in 24 hours. The other half a bird I was going to apply a rub to (all over and under the skin) and let sit over night. (The bird is an 18# Shadybrook Farms "natural" which they've already "enhanced", which I interpret as meaning that it's been injected, so no brining is advisable.) Then I was planning to smoke both at 250* until I got an IT of 165*.

My questions about cold vs hot and whether the cured bird is edible were really for knowledge rather than for near term use!

 

[solaryellow]

Ah. I was looking at it from the filter of Pops' recipe. Glad you picked up on those details and thanks for the additional education. 

 

 Instacure 1 is fine if you are going to use normal smoking temperatures and cure for less then five days.   And take the bird over the 140 mark and hold it for at least 10 minutes.

In the quote below you can see several problems with using cure #1:

5 to six days of cure time in the pickle, this is a concern because we must assume a frozen turkey is being thawed and cured.  Even if this was a fresh killed bird the day six is becoming a problem on any haccp plan.

The comment that make cure number 2 mandatory is the comment that we will slow smoke with an AMS for 8-10 hours "then cook the buzzard" which indicates a low temp smoke for way to long for cure one to be affective.  This kind of modification is taking the bird from a cure 1 recipe and subjecting it to cure 2 needs due to time temp considerations.

I am all for experimenting with recipes, I am not comfortable letting someone move into the danger zone for 8 to 10 hours without additional protection from food pathogens.  So to smoke a turkey for 8 to 10 hours them temperature will be very low or you will end up with a cinder for a product.  Cure two is a must or the smoke time must move from 8-10 hours to 4 to 6 hours with a minimum temp of 200 F while smoking.  Otherwise go cure to or meet your medical deductible.

I'm thinking about curing a turkey "wet brine". Here's the idea, thaw and rinse the turkey and place in a food grade bucket to place in the fridge. I'm thinking one cup of kosher salt per gallon of distilled water and use enough to cover the bird. The brine will have been premade and in the fridge cold.  Then I'm thinking about adding 1/4 tsp. pink salt per pound of turkey. I'm hoping to pickle the bird for at least 5-6 days. What do you think. I want to long smoke the bird with my AMS 8-10 hours before cooking the buzzard.  [\quote]  [\quote]

Cold smoking a turkey with an amaz n smoker at temperatures under 180 F will require the protection afforded by cure number 2.  With out the 0.64 percent sodium nitrate you are gambling when cold smoking a turkey for an extended period of time.

 

[smokingnd]

Thanks bbally, i understand the difference between the two cures, I guess i was just wondering if the DQ that was mentioned could be replaced with #1 or #2, i see the need for #2 now, I had just never heard of a cured turkey so I was wondering about the use of DQ versus instacure.  Looking forward to qview I am ver intersted to see how it turns out.  Thanks again

 

[Bearcarver]

This thing is all new to me, and I'm totally confused. If one cures the turkey using #2, does that curing process result in turkey that is edible, or is the cold smoke necessarily followed by cooking? If so, then why cold smoke?

I'm planning to cure half a turkey for Bird-day. Can I use TQ for this? I know it's not low-salt, but I don't know how it fits in with this #1 vs #2 discussion. Looking at the Morton's curing guide, I believe they had a recipe for Turkey using TQ that cured for 24 hours (with injection).

TIA

 One can use cure 1 or cure 2 or TQ for doing a turkey.  But each is used for specific smoking conditions.

Cure 1 for normal smoking temperatures 140 F to as high as you want to dare.

Cure 2 for long cure times, curing times of 4 to 6 days on turkeys that were frozen and thawed to then cure.  Or for cold smoking a turkey for cold service.

TenderQuick is not a cure, but a salt that gives meat cure properties.  Using tenderquick requires you to use all food safety time temp rules.  With the exception of doing fish.

Show the recipe of what you are thinking, there are plenty of people that can help you (myself included) make sure you are safe and understand the whys.

Problems with cure 1 and 2 confusion are based mostly on opinions from people who do not understand the real reasons for cure 2's use.  And that leads to lots of food poisoning problems every single year.

Making stuff with TQ is not curing.. it is following a recipe.   Making stuff that is hot finished with cure 1 is curing with a complete nitrite conversion gauranteed by temperature finish.

Making stuff with cure 2 is a high level curing method, you need to totally understand why and when it is called for if you are going to venture on your own.

As the temperature duration shows in the quote in my post above.... it is really easy to cross the line and think you are safe when you are not if you don't understand the principles of why and when.

This is going to be a rare occassion. I have never disagreed with bbally. Bbally, you are my hero, when it comes to safety, but I don't understand why you say TQ is not a cure. I use it to cure Belly Bacon, Buckboard Bacon, Canadian Bacon, Turkey Bacon, Venison Bacon, Dried Beef, etc, etc.

Maybe you mean because it is not a cure without the added curing nitrites & nitrates that are added to it, but it isn't called Tender Quick until those things are added.

I don't know why you do not consider it a cure. 

And when I use TQ, I do not use the 40 to 140 in 4 hours rule, or any of that type of rule. I low & slow Bacon, Dried Beef & the rest, just like I do fish, because TQ has in fact cured those meats. The only rule I can think of offhand that I have to follow is cooking the foods to 152˚ for some, and 160˚ for others before I eat it, but I would have to do that with the cure #1 types also, so I am still confused as to why you say TQ is not a cure.

If I'm wrong, please explain before I continue. I have 10 pounds of Pork loin on their 4th day in "TQ cure", and I will be low & slow smoking it for about 8 hours on Thanksgiving.

Thanks,

Bear

 

[meateater]

Alright I'm starting to understand the difference between sodium nitrite aka pink salt and sodium nitrate for longer curing aka genoa or hard salami or any hard cured meat "no jokes please" . I'm glad I bought the Rytek Kutas book. Finally had a chance to read some last couple of nights. I'm sticking with Pops recipe here, its got qview. Somehow my post got transfered here, sorry POPS for the intrusion. HAPPY HOLIDAYS ALL!

 May you all be turkey coma induced.

 

[fpnmf]

OK..now I am a little confused. I am fairly new to this smoking thing.

My confusion lies with the different views on cures.

Having bought and read the Kutas book and Charcuterie it seems like Bear is correct.

I have used both TQ and pink salt several times.

So.. I got the packages they came in out.

The pink salt is very clear about what it and how to use it as is the TQ.

The TQ is very clear in the instructions and on the front of the package it is a meat cure.

I do see that TQ says ..rub cure into meat and into the fridge for 4-8 hours to cure.

If that's the case why am I keeping the bellies in there for 9 days?

I would love to see a meeting of the minds on the cure confusion. I have seen that I am not the only confused person.

To agree and solve this would make a great WIKI.

 Have a great day!

  Craig

 

[meateater]

I think Mod's should lock this post, intrusion on a members experience.

 

[beer-b-q]

 One can use cure 1 or cure 2 or TQ for doing a turkey.  But each is used for specific smoking conditions.

Cure 1 for normal smoking temperatures 140 F to as high as you want to dare.

Cure 2 for long cure times, curing times of 4 to 6 days on turkeys that were frozen and thawed to then cure.  Or for cold smoking a turkey for cold service.

TenderQuick is not a cure, but a salt that gives meat cure properties.  Using tenderquick requires you to use all food safety time temp rules.  With the exception of doing fish.

Show the recipe of what you are thinking, there are plenty of people that can help you (myself included) make sure you are safe and understand the whys.

Problems with cure 1 and 2 confusion are based mostly on opinions from people who do not understand the real reasons for cure 2's use.  And that leads to lots of food poisoning problems every single year.

Making stuff with TQ is not curing.. it is following a recipe.  Making stuff that is hot finished with cure 1 is curing with a complete nitrite conversion gauranteed by temperature finish.

Making stuff with cure 2 is a high level curing method, you need to totally understand why and when it is called for if you are going to venture on your own.

As the temperature duration shows in the quote in my post above.... it is really easy to cross the line and think you are safe when you are not if you don't understand the principles of why and when.

Bob, according to The Morton Site they are a Cure...

4) Are there specific uses for Morton Meat Curing products?
	Morton Salt manufactures and markets three complete meat curing products: Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji], Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) and Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji]. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] and Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) are fast meat cure products that have been developed as cures for fresh and frozen meat, poultry and game. Both Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] and Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) may be used for either dry curing or sweet pickle curing. Generally, sweet pickle curing is used for smaller cuts of meat and poultry, while dry curing is used for larger cuts, such as shoulders or hams. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] contains salt, sugar, propylene glycol, sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite.    Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) contains salt, sugar, propylene glycol, sodium nitrate, sodium nitrite, spice extractives and dextrose. Salt acts as a preserving agent, along with sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite, which also contribute to color and flavor development. Propylene glycol helps to keep the mixture uniform. With the exception of the added spice packet in Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain), Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick and Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) are essentially the same and can be used interchangeably in recipes. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] is formulated especially for dry curing large cuts of meat, such as hams or bacon. It contains salt, sugar, propylene glycol, sodium nitrate, dextrose, caramel color, natural hickory smoke flavor and a blend of natural spices.  When using Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji], a cure is achieved only after a considerable period of time. As a result, it is recommended only for dry curing hams and bacon and should not be used for making a brine solution. All the recipes and information currently available from Morton on meat curing are included in our Home Meat Curing Guide. Our meat curing guide is a 32‑page completely illustrated guide to curing hams, bacons, sausage and small cuts of meat. Please note: Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] Mix, Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) and Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] are not meat tenderizers and cannot be used for regular cooking, baking, or table use. The only application for these products is curing ham, bacon, small cuts of meat, and sausage making.   Back to Top

[h1]Morton[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup] Tender Quick[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup][/h1]This mix is a fast cure product that has been developed as a cure for meat, poultry, game, salmon, shad, and sablefish. It is a combination of high grade salt and other quality curing ingredients that can be used for both dry and sweet pickle curing. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] mix contains salt, the main preserving agent; sugar, both sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite, curing agents that also contribute to development of color and flavor; and propylene glycol to keep the mixture uniform. Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Tender Quick[emoji]174[/emoji] mix can be used interchangeably with Morton[emoji]174[/emoji] Sugar Cure[emoji]174[/emoji] (Plain) mix. It is NOT a meat tenderizer.

CAUTION: This curing salt is designed to be used at the rate specified in the formulation or recipe. It should not be used at higher levels as results will be inconsistent, cured meats will be too salty, and the finished products may be unsatisfactory. Curing salts should be used only in meat, poultry, game, salmon, shad and sablefish. Curing salts cannot be substituted for regular salt in other food recipes. Always keep meat refrigerated (36° to 40°F) while curing.

 

[bbally]

Bob, according to The Morton Site they are a Cure...

[h1]Morton[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup] Tender Quick[sup][emoji]174[/emoji][/sup][/h1]strong>

CAUTION: This curing salt is designed to be used at the rate specified in the formulation or recipe. It should not be used at higher levels as results will be inconsistent, cured meats will be too salty, and the finished products may be unsatisfactory.

I don't mean it does not cure, and I am not saying it's not a good product.

I mean it is not a cure formulation as in Prague powder 1 or Prague powder 2.

It is, as it states in its label above:

Curing salt designed to be used at the rate specified in the formulation or recipes.

The site then goes on to state the recipes and formulations they have designed for it.

I know a lot of people use it, experiment with it, and have great success with it.  But it is not a class of cure like Prague 1, Cure 1, Pink 1 which is always 6.25 percent sodium nitrite.  The rest is always sodium cloride as a carrier.

This allows us to use it properly and calculate how to reach the proper levels for given weights of meat.

When using cure, it is very important to never exceed the recommended amount of 4 ounces of Cure #1 in 100 pounds of meat. Equivalently this is 2 teaspoons of cure 1 for 10 pounds of chopped meat.  The maximum allowable amount of sodium nitrite is governed by regulations and is limited to 0.25 ounces per 100 pounds of chopped meat. With Cure #1 at a 1:15 dilution (meaning in a pound of Cure #1 one .is sodium nitrite and the remaining 15 ounces salt), we get the proper amount at a rate of 4 ounces added to 100 lb of meat.

This can be used to calculate its use for any amount of meat you want to cure.

Likewise Prague 2, Cure 2 and Pink 2 (usually red) is always contains 6.25 percent sodium nitrite and 0.64 ounces of sodium nitrate.

This allows us to calculate the protections required for pounds of meat.  Sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate are limited to 2.75 ounces per 100 pounds.  This is very important.

Sodium nitrite is quite toxic to humans with the lethal dose being about 4 grams of the compound. As little as 22 mg/kg of body weight can cause death. This is about 2.2 grams for a body mass of 100 kg. Thus, there is enough sodium nitrite in 2 ounces of Prague powder #1 to kill a person dead.

I am not trying to scare you all, I just want you to know with quick products and little experiments you should understand the rules above or you could hurt someone or yourself.

This also means that prague 1 or 2 can not be substituted for tenderquick and any recipe calling for tenderquick cannot have cure 1 or 2 substituted.

But the real problem is the concentrations of the components of tenderquick are not listed on the package so how do you know what the safe level use is for a given product to be greated?  That is why they make recipes and formulations so it can be used following the guidelines to make some cool products at home.

The fact remains tenderquick is not a cure it does not meat guidelines for cure 1 or 2.  Therefore it is a cure mix similar to a sausage cure mix or jerky cure mix.. it has lots of components in it designed to create an end product.  While I agree the mix can be used on lots of things, it cannot be used as a cure in a recipe.  It can only be used as a mix to cure something.

I don't care if you lock the thread or not, I am only giving out information so people can learn.  I am not picking on a product, I like the stuff it gets people into making cured smoked products.  But it is not a cure, the ratios are wrong.  But the tenderquick mix will cure meat.

Please when you read my comments realize I am giving out information not picking on anything or anyone...

 

[bbally]

I thought that by having sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite it is a true cure, and by dilluting the trites and trates with salt that they are making the quantities to be used for smallish batches of meat more easily measured by those of us who are all thumbs. They also limit our ability to use less salt than what they call for.

Anyway, I was planning to cure half a bird with TQ mixed with brown sugar as per Morton's curing guide (I don't have it with me at work, so I can't get exact here). I recall them having a recipe that called for injection and cured in 24 hours. The other half a bird I was going to apply a rub to (all over and under the skin) and let sit over night. (The bird is an 18# Shadybrook Farms "natural" which they've already "enhanced", which I interpret as meaning that it's been injected, so no brining is advisable.) Then I was planning to smoke both at 250* until I got an IT of 165*.

My questions about cold vs hot and whether the cured bird is edible were really for knowledge rather than for near term use!

The product does meat the standard to be called Cure 1 or Prague 1 or Instacure 1 so it is not a cure.  To be Cure 1 it must be 6.25 percent sodium nitrite and the rest salt.  TQ does not meat that specification and cannot be a cure.  But the product is a premix cure and as such it does cure meat.  But can never be substituted for Cure 1 or Cure 2.

As long as you are using the Morton's guide you will be fine.  I T of 165 F is fine as well.

OK so you should have the hot and cold answer or at least my version of it.  Hope it helped.