help with chicken thigh diagnosis

[manman]

This was my first time doing chicken thighs.  Have had a little experience getting used to my WSM with some sparerib and pork butt cooks though, and those have mostly gone well (or I was at least able to identify the reasons when they didn't :)   ) 

I'm not quite sure about this one though, so I'd like to get some community feedback.  I did boneless, skinless wings, using the brine found here http://www.3men.com/competition chicken.htm, prepared the same way.  The brine sat in the fridge a little while to cool it down, but maybe not long enough as it was still a little warm when I started putting the chicken in.
Put the thighs (about 12) in, and put a smaller pot lid in with a solid ice pack (in a ziplock bag) over the top of it both to push the chicken down and cool the brine down.  Left them in for about 3-4 hours. 

Took them out, put some olive oil on them, and sprinkled my rub. It was some I had left over from making ribs so I can't remember exactly, but I think it was http://bbq.about.com/od/rubrecipes/r/bl90710b.htm with less paprika and some chipotle chile pepper added.  Not sure how much people usually put, but I think I was pretty conservative, definitely not heavy.

WSM was set up with a chimney lit poured over a little over 1/2 chimney unlit + 3 very small chunks of cherry wood, a little water in the pan.  Put the thighs on at abotu 260 degrees, and for most of the cook it was at about 300 on my maverick, showing maybe 280 on the lid.  After about an hour they were at about 170-180 internal so I put a little sweet baby ray's on them, let them sit for 2 or 3 minutes and pulled them off.

They definitely weren't bad, but there were 2 things I noticed. 

1) they were far too salty (and that's a rare complaint for me!)

2) they seemed tougher than they should have been.  I've grilled thighs on indirect heat before, and they came out much juicier.

 

The things I'm suspecting right now are- the soy sauce for the saltiness and maybe too much wood (even for that small amount?) for the toughness?  for thighs, being at the right temp within an hour I would have thought there is no way they wouldn't be nice and juicy...
 

Sorry for the long post, just trying to give good detail to go on.  We're having some family over for my son's 2nd birthday tomorrow, I'm glad I decided to do a practice run before having them over!  For now I've decided to switch my brine to 3/4 gal. water, 1/4 gal apple juice, the rest the same but without the olive oil.   Any other ideas or advice would be appreciated.  Thanks!

 

[alblancher]

I'm a big believer that you can always add salt later.  I go lite on the salt with rubs.

You know you can do those thighs at a lower temp then kick it up to crisp the skin.  You mentioned that they where more tender when you used indirect heat.  Try that then raise the temp for the last 15 min or so and see what happens

I bet most of your problems are the brine and rub. 

Just guessing

 

[piaconis]

That brine has far too much salt in it.  I would suggest either going with a low sodium soy sauce, or use less kosher salt.  I only use 1/2 cup in my brine for 1 1/2 gallons of water.  Also, I start with room temperature water and ice it down.

I agree with alblancher.  You can lower that heat down.  I cook mine in the 235-250 range, then finish it off with a quick turn on the grill.

Hope this helps!  Remember, it never happened unless there's Q view.

 

[jarhead]

With that much brine time, salt and soy sauce, it is no wonder that they were salty.

Here is the brine that I use. Nothing fancy. Brine it for 1-2 hours.

1 gallon Water
1/2 cup coarse kosher salt
1/2 cup white sugar
3 bay leaves
1 whole onion, cut-up

2 Tbsp Lemon Pepper

To dissolve, heat to a boil.

Remove from heat and cool.

Brine should be at 40 F or lower before adding chicken.

Place chicken in a ziplock bag and pour enough brine in to cover.

Remove air and seal.

Place into a pan, in case it leaks.

At 1 hour, massage the bag and flip.

Remove from brine and rinse at 2 hours.

If using chicken parts, reduce to 1 hour.

Pat dry and put rub on and under the skin.

Cook at 300-325 for 1-1/2 to 2 hours or until internal temp is 165.

Tent and rest 15 minutes before serving.

Optional, run it across a hot grill to crisp up the skin and set sauce, if using.

 

[manman]

Thanks everyone!   I saw some people saying brine 8-10 hours and then other said with just thighs that's way too long, and only do 4 hours, so I thought I had gone on the low end... I was definitely skeptical of all that soy sauce though.  The reason I don't think it's the rub is because I've used a lot more of that rub on other meats and it wasn't too salty.  Also the rub has some good kick to it definitely more spicy than salty, but the chicken wasn't all that spicy, so I did go pretty light on the rub.

So I will make a new brine this morning with less salt and only sit for 1-2 hrs.   These are boneless/skinless thighs, so I don't need to worry about crisping the skin.

With chicken thighs I've read that they don't benefit as much from low and slow, and that it comes out roughly the same if you cook at lower heat (225-250) for a few hours, or at 300 for an hour, as long as you pull at the right temp.  Do you guys disagree?  In looking around I saw a lot more recommendations for cooking at the higher temp than lower, but that could be because people were cooking with the skin on?  Definitely want to figure out why I lost some tenderness...

 

[alblancher]

I believe you will get more smoke at the low and slow.  Are you looking for the smoke taste?

 

[bama bbq]

One or two hours for pieces is plenty for a brine.  Whole cuts can go overnight.

 

[uncle_lar]

I didnt see if someone mentioned this, but did you rinse the pieces after you removed them from the brine?

I always rinse  my chicken very well even soak for a bit, then pat dry and apply the rub. I never have a salty problem

 

[manman]

Thanks, yeah I did rinse them off (I thought pretty well, but maybe I'll give that a little more attention this time too. 

I do want the smokey flavor, and I definitely did taste that last night, but I'll keep that in mind.  I think we'll have some time constraints today too, but I should be able to go a little lower for a little longer.

Thanks all for all the advice, much appreciated!  I'll report back on how it went and won't forget to take pics next time :)

 

[rabbithutch]

Just my opinion, but I don't do boneless, skinless chicken parts. The skin helps keep the meat from drying too quickly and losing all its moisture. The bones just add flavor. i've done grilled and smoked chooks with and without skin and bones and I do a mean chicken a la cacciatore that I've tried both with and without. Without exception, with skin and bones has been better received by those I've fed. I do remove skin from the cooked thighs before I add them back to the sauce, but not the bones.

I don't brine unless I'm doing a whole bird going under the theory that everyone can salt to taste but controlling a brine on parts is too iffy.

Where's that "my two cents" smiley?

 

[manman]

I'm back.  Really glad I came here for some advice, the chicken turned out great!  The flavor was great, I could taste the chipotle pepper in the rub but neither the brine or rub were overpowering, I could taste the meat and the smoke flavor.  Could have pulled them off a tad earlier, but was very happy with how it turned out, as were the guests.  Got a lot of compliments, and no leftovers :)

By the time I remembered to take a pic they were already almost gone.  

 

Rabbithutch-

Thanks for the advice.  I think you're right that seems to be the more popular opinion. We cook bonless/skinless thighs just in the oven fairly regularly, so that was just a go-to since that's what they have at the store near us, but I should have planned ahead to go get some good quality bone-in  w/ skin.  I will try that next time + finish on the grill w/ direct heat for crispy skin.  

I will say that I do want to try that brine again though; I thought it really added some great flavor. 

 

[chef jimmyj]

That Chicken look great! If you would like to try some think slightly different...This is the Brine and Rub I use on Chicken. It's gotten positive responses from those that use it...

Families Favorite Brine

1/2C Kosher Salt

2T Paprika

2T Gran. Garlic

2T Gran. Onion

2T Dry Thyme

2T Black Pepper

1C Vinegar (Any)

1-11/2Gal Cold Water to cover Chix

1T Red Pepper Flake Optional

Mix well and Soak the Bird for 24 Hours.

Remove the Chix, rinse if desired and pat dry with paper towels.

Place in an open container in the refrigerator overnight or up to 24 hours for the Skin to dry.

This will give a crispier skin when Smokng or Roasting...

Bubba Chix Rub

1/2C Raw Sugar

2T Paprika (I use Smoked if I'm just Grilling)

1T Cayenne

1T Gran. Garlic

1T Gran. Onion

1tsp Black Pepper

1tsp Wht Pepper

1tsp Allspice

1tsp Bell's Poultry Seasoning (optional)

Mix well and rub on Oil or Butter coated Chicken.

Reduce Cayenne to 1teaspoon if less heat is desired.

Another member, I is moose, determined that 48oz (by weight) of Soy Sauce is the equivalent of 12oz (by weight) of Salt or 4 to 1. I use 3.5 oz of Kosher Salt in my brine. So if you like the flavor the Soy Sauce brings to the Brine, you can substitute 14oz of Soy Sauce for all the Salt and 14oz of Water in my Brine and get the equivalent Salt level...You will also notice since I brine there is no Salt in the Rub, it is not needed...My rub has a few more ingredient than the one you got on that " Other " site but it's pretty tasty. If you don't like or don't have an ingredient, leave it out. You can also substitute Chipotle Pepper for any portion of the Cayenne in the Rub...Try it some time...JJ

 

[rabbithutch]

:drool:

 

[jarhead]

Great looking things, Manman.