Going to try my first butt tomorrow :)

[kenafein]

 
You need to smoke it to around 200° IT to break down all the collagen and connective tissue and to render out all the fat. 

Heat breaks it down, not smoke.  He doesn't need to apply smoke, in his electric smoker, after a certain point.  Of course he needs to continue to cook it until it reaches the appropriate temperature. The premise is that meat stops accepting smoke after it has reached a certain temperature.  Smoke it the whole time if you want, but if his AMPS runs out after 6-8 hours, i doubt he'll be able to tell the difference.

I did some research on AmazingRibs, and it looks like it may be a myth, but he also says that meat has absorbed enough smoke by 150-160 degrees.  I know I don't add any more pellets to the AMNTS after it runs out, because the meat has already hit over 150-160 by the time that it runs out.    

"Based on Blonder's data, you may  want to wrap pork shoulders and beef briskets in heavy duty foil at about 150 to 160°F, after about two to four hours in the smoke. By then it has absorbed as much smoke as is needed. If you wrap it then, the meat powers right through the stall on a steady curve and takes much less time. It also retains more juice."

"All this Blonder research busts a bunch of myths.  The smoke ring is not cause by the billowy white stuff, it is caused by gases. It is not enhanced by paprika. It is enhanced by basting. It is not due to nitrites like the pink color in cured meats. There is no time limit on smoke absorption. The ring stops when the meat hits about 170°F and myoglobin loses its oxygen retaining ability, not 140°F. Salt has little to do with it. Some people think it does because it is right below the surface and that is where the spices and smoke flavors live. They are fooled by the bark."  (This is from an article on smoke rings, which doesn't really apply in an electric, but the smoke absorption part still applies.)

This may all be too much info, Mummel.  Just cook it, and it will turn out great.  If the smoke runs out after 6 hours or so, don't worry about it, just get some sleep.  

 

[mummel]

You misunderstood. I wasn't talking about determining total cooking time, but was talking about figuring out how many rows to fill up in my AMPS. I think it took me 5-6 hours the other night to hit 165F. So that's about 1.5 rows. If say 95% of my smoke flavor was added at that point, then I see little reason to burn another 1.5 rows of pellets.

 

[daricksta]

 
Heat breaks it down, not smoke.  He doesn't need to apply smoke, in his electric smoker, after a certain point.  Of course he needs to continue to cook it until it reaches the appropriate temperature. The premise is that meat stops accepting smoke after it has reached a certain temperature.  Smoke it the whole time if you want, but if his AMPS runs out after 6-8 hours, i doubt he'll be able to tell the difference.

I did some research on AmazingRibs, and it looks like it may be a myth, but he also says that meat has absorbed enough smoke by 150-160 degrees.  I know I don't add any more pellets to the AMNTS after it runs out, because the meat has already hit over 150-160 by the time that it runs out.    

"Based on Blonder's data, you may  want to wrap pork shoulders and beef briskets in heavy duty foil at about 150 to 160°F, after about two to four hours in the smoke. By then it has absorbed as much smoke as is needed. If you wrap it then, the meat powers right through the stall on a steady curve and takes much less time. It also retains more juice."

"All this Blonder research busts a bunch of myths.  The smoke ring is not cause by the billowy white stuff, it is caused by gases. It is not enhanced by paprika. It is enhanced by basting. It is not due to nitrites like the pink color in cured meats. There is no time limit on smoke absorption. The ring stops when the meat hits about 170°F and myoglobin loses its oxygen retaining ability, not 140°F. Salt has little to do with it. Some people think it does because it is right below the surface and that is where the spices and smoke flavors live. They are fooled by the bark."  (This is from an article on smoke rings, which doesn't really apply in an electric, but the smoke absorption part still applies.)

This may all be too much info, Mummel.  Just cook it, and it will turn out great.  If the smoke runs out after 6 hours or so, don't worry about it, just get some sleep.  

When I typed "smoke" in the sentence you quoted I was referring to cooking the meat in a smoker so I thought the heat part was a given. It's what many of us do here because, well, we're all using smokers. I smoke meat in my smoker and I grill it on my grill. It's just a form of shorthand for me. I don't just merely cook meat in my MES, I smoke it as I cook.

But it seems to be you're annoyed at my disagreement with you over the correct final IT for pulled pork because this is the line of yours I responded to: "You only need smoke till ~140 degrees internal temp." Or did you mean heat?

The point is you're flat out wrong with this advice. Cook a pork shoulder to only 140° and you're going to have one tough cut of meat that will not shred or "pull" at all. Try smoking--and yes, in a smoker you smoke meat because unless you're cold smoking it's understood by everyone who owns a smoker that you're cooking with heat over wood smoke--a brisket or a chuck roast to 140° and serve that to your family or guests. It's a fact that cuts of meat like pork shoulder and such need to be cooked to a specific temp to literally render them tender and moist. Look at any grilling or smoking recipes for pork shoulder, beef brisket, or chuck roast and show me one recipe that says to only cook it to 140°. You won't find any.

As for your discussion on smoke rings, that was not what I was addressing. Oh, after you've been on SMF long enough you'll find that many knowledgeable and experienced members disagree with much of what's stated on AmazingRibs. The guys article on smoke rings is fine but when he pushes that meat can reach a point when it no longer can absorb smoke, you'll get much disagreement here from those same knowledgeable and experienced members. If we were unable to get smoke into meat beyond 160° IT then none of us would oversmoke meat, would we?

Now, I took a BBQ class where the instructor swore that by the time meat reaches an IT of 160° it can no longer absorb smoke because of the pellicle that has formed on the surface of the meat. I raised this issue on SMF and the instructor's claim was roundly debunked.

My intention was to comment on the proper IT to cook a pork butt/shoulder to for maximum tenderness, etc., and that is indeed around 200°. Your advice to mummel to just smoke--I mean

 

[stovebolt]

 I think he was saying you only need smoke to 140°, not to stop cooking at 140°. Of course that is only if you don't like much smoke. I smoke start to finish unless I foil while cooking because smoke is useless when foiled.

 Meat doesn't stop taking smoke @ 140°.

 And for the record, if I do braise (what the foil is for) I cook to about 185°or the meat just seems mushy to me. Too tender. I like some texture (mouth feel) left in the meat.

 Chuck

 

[Bearcarver]

I'm not going to try to agree with anybody here, or disagree. I'll just throw a couple of my opinions on some of the things discussed in the last few posts.

I never light both ends of my AMNPS.  I like a lot of smoke flavor, but at my low altitude that smoke would be too heavy. After 5 years of experience with the AMNPS, I have had varying amounts of smoke coming from my AMNPS when one end is lit, but at its heaviest it is only slightly less smoke than I would call "Too Heavy". Years ago I tried lighting both ends one time, and once they both got rolling, it was just too thick. I pulled it out, extinguished one end, and put it back in to finish what I was smoking.

I keep my smoke going on whatever I'm smoking the whole time it's in the smoker, except while finishing a Pellicle (first hour or 2), or while the meat is foiled, because in my opinion meat never stops accepting smoke flavor, and as long as it's light smoke, it won't hurt.

I don't worry about a smoke ring, because I can't get one with my electric smoker, and because it's all show anyway. IMHO

When I pan and foil a Butt, I usually do it at about 165°. I don't consider this braising, because I don't add that much liquid to the pan, and sometimes I put the meat on a wire cooling rack (in the pan) so it doesn't sit in any of the liquid, and with or without the wire rack I have never had "Mushy" pulled pork.

As for stopping smoke at 140°, 150°, or 160°, that would be determined by the taste of those who will be consuming the product. I personally stop the smoke when I pan & foil the Butt (165°). If I was going to skip foiling the Butt, I would keep the smoke going until the Butt is finished, or when a Full AMNPS has burned out (Approx. 11 hours). Whichever comes first.

Bear

 

[mummel]

I wonder if someone could taste the difference in SMOKE from a foiled butt vs a non-foiled butt?  Thats the real question.

 

[kenafein]

When I typed "smoke" in the sentence you quoted I was referring to cooking the meat in a smoker so I thought the heat part was a given. It's what many of us do here because, well, we're all using smokers. I smoke meat in my smoker and I grill it on my grill. It's just a form of shorthand for me. I don't just merely cook meat in my MES, I smoke it as I cook.

But it seems to be you're annoyed at my disagreement with you over the correct final IT for pulled pork because this is the line of yours I responded to: "You only need smoke till ~140 degrees internal temp." Or did you mean heat?

The point is you're flat out wrong with this advice. Cook a pork shoulder to only 140° and you're going to have one tough cut of meat that will not shred or "pull" at all. Try smoking--and yes, in a smoker you smoke meat because unless you're cold smoking it's understood by everyone who owns a smoker that you're cooking with heat over wood smoke--a brisket or a chuck roast to 140° and serve that to your family or guests. It's a fact that cuts of meat like pork shoulder and such need to be cooked to a specific temp to literally render them tender and moist. Look at any grilling or smoking recipes for pork shoulder, beef brisket, or chuck roast and show me one recipe that says to only cook it to 140°. You won't find any.

As for your discussion on smoke rings, that was not what I was addressing. Oh, after you've been on SMF long enough you'll find that many knowledgeable and experienced members disagree with much of what's stated on AmazingRibs. The guys article on smoke rings is fine but when he pushes that meat can reach a point when it no longer can absorb smoke, you'll get much disagreement here from those same knowledgeable and experienced members. If we were unable to get smoke into meat beyond 160° IT then none of us would oversmoke meat, would we?
Now, I took a BBQ class where the instructor swore that by the time meat reaches an IT of 160° it can no longer absorb smoke because of the pellicle that has formed on the surface of the meat. I raised this issue on SMF and the instructor's claim was roundly debunked.

My intention was to comment on the proper IT to cook a pork butt/shoulder to for maximum tenderness, etc., and that is indeed around 200°. Your advice to mummel to just smoke--I mean

This is simply a misunderstanding, and I am not trying to start an argument. Mummel was worried about how long he needed smoke to be generated. I was simply informing him that if the smoke stopped after several hours, and the meat had already hit between 140 and 160 internal temperature, he needn't add more pellets to generate smoke. It should be smokey enough at that point. Of course he will continue to cook the meat with the heating element until it reached approximately 200 degrees internal temperature. It wouldn't pulled pork if he didn't.

 

[gary s]

I am not a watt burner, But that is good sound advice from someone with lots of experience     Great Post     

Gary

 

[mummel]

It seems like there are a lot of varying opinions on the topic.  I will try dig up more info.  It comes down to a single row of pellets in the AMPS (i.e. smoke for ~8 hours to 170F or smoke for a full 12 hours).  Nothing we should love sleep over but I like to analyze this kind of stuff an think about it.  I enjoy it - gaining KNOWLEDGE.

no-smoke-flavor.jpg

• mummel
• Jun 16, 2015

 

[gary s]

 
It seems like there are a lot of varying opinions on the topic.  I will try dig up more info.  It comes down to a single row of pellets in the AMPS (i.e. smoke for ~8 hours to 170F or smoke for a full 12 hours).  Nothing we should love sleep over but I like to analyze this kind of stuff an think about it.  I enjoy it - gaining KNOWLEDGE.

no-smoke-flavor.jpg

• mummel
• Jun 16, 2015

I've seen that, and you are partially correct  the smoke will only penetrate so deep 

in a certain amount of time, But  The outside can keep absorbing smoke till it's 

too smokey

 

[gary s]

Another thing, the more you smoke, it becomes second nature on how much smoke different types of meat absorb and how quickly 

Gary

 

[kenafein]

 
I never light both ends of my AMNPS.  

As for stopping smoke at 140°, 150°, or 160°, that would be determined by the taste of those who will be consuming the product. I personally stop the smoke when I pan & foil the Butt (165°). If I was going to skip foiling the Butt, I would keep the smoke going until the Butt is finished, or when a Full AMNPS has burned out (Approx. 11 hours). Whichever comes first.

My only experience is with my AMNTS.  I can only light that on one side, the smoke is so thin in my MES that I figured you could double it.  Good to hear your experience. 

As for the 140 figure, I retracted that after reading a few articles on AmazingRibs.  It's a myth that's been spread around the BBQ community for years.  Still, I've smoked things all the way and i've smoked to (usually) about 160 and i can't really tell a difference between the two.  I am not in the camp with those that think smoking the whole time is a bad thing, I just pointed out that some people feel that way.  But back in the days before the AMNTS, when you had to load that damnable chip tray every hour(and worry about thick white smoke), I was happy when it hit the point where I thought I could stop adding smoke. Now, when I use my AMNTS, it runs for about 5 hours in the MES or the Traeger and I've not felt the need to relight it but I've also been cooking hotter.

 

[mummel]

BTW - what do you guys do with that hard muscle part on the butt?  I pulled it and ate it separately.  It was good, but a little tough & dry.  I kept the tender meat separately.  Any ideas?

 

[daricksta]

 
 I think he was saying you only need smoke to 140°, not to stop cooking at 140°. Of course that is only if you don't like much smoke. I smoke start to finish unless I foil while cooking because smoke is useless when foiled.

 Meat doesn't stop taking smoke @ 140°.

 And for the record, if I do braise (what the foil is for) I cook to about 185°or the meat just seems mushy to me. Too tender. I like some texture (mouth feel) left in the meat.

 Chuck

It might have been a double misunderstanding then, Chuck. I agree with you that meat doesn't stop taking smoke at 140°. Today I'm smoking a pork shoulder so if that were true, I should have removed the AMNPS about an hour ago which would have been about 3 hours into the smoke. That would mean for the remaining 8-11 hours I would need to foil the pork shoulder because to expose it to more smoke would be a waste. That's not how pork shoulder, beef brisket, or a chuckie works.

I don't plan on foiling the pork because I want it to absorb all the smoke it can. I also want good bark as well. Now, I do foil pork ribs and beef brisket because I prefer less bark on those and so does my family. But the ribs are foiled after about 3 hours and the beef brisket is foiled over 6 hours. However, I unfoil both when they've just about hit their finish temps. I apply a finishing sauce and leave the meats exposed to whatever smoke is still in my MES for about 30 minutes. This is just my personal style.

 

[daricksta]

This is simply a misunderstanding, and I am not trying to start an argument. Mummel was worried about how long he needed smoke to be generated. I was simply informing him that if the smoke stopped after several hours, and the meat had already hit between 140 and 160 internal temperature, he needn't add more pellets to generate smoke. It should be smokey enough at that point. Of course he will continue to cook the meat with the heating element until it reached approximately 200 degrees internal temperature. It wouldn't pulled pork if he didn't.

Kenafein, I sincerely apologize. This isn't the first time I've misread a post very early in the morning. I should know better by now. My eyes filled in a missing word so that I thought you wrote that mummel needed to smoke to 140° instead of what you actually wrote.

However, I still disagree with your actual statement I don't want to start a fight either. But it just so happens I am smoking a pork shoulder today and the current IT is 158°. I'm shooting for a finish IT of 200° even though I have no idea how much longer it will take. Typically, a full AMNPS will burn for about 11 hours, give or take an hour or two. My plan is to just let the AMNPS burn out when it will. I won't add any additional pellets since by that time the pork shoulder will have absorbed more than enough smoke. I'm leaving the shoulder unfoiled throughout the smoke.

Again, I apologize for my misunderstanding and for the attitude.

 

[daricksta]

You misunderstood. I wasn't talking about determining total cooking time, but was talking about figuring out how many rows to fill up in my AMPS. I think it took me 5-6 hours the other night to hit 165F. So that's about 1.5 rows. If say 95% of my smoke flavor was added at that point, then I see little reason to burn another 1.5 rows of pellets.

Mummel, I've been smoking a 4 lb.pork shoulder all day. I put it on at 9 am and filled all rows of the AMNPS with apple and pecan wood pellets. It's now 4:35 pm (7.5 hours later) and there's still thin blue smoke wafting up from the top vent. Right now the IT is only 167° and I have idea how many more hours it will take to reach my finish temp of 200°. And I just realized to my enduring anguish and despair that I forgot to smear on the yellow mustard before I applied the rub. It's all been for nothing then...

But back to the subject. Figure that you get an average of 11 hours of smoke per filled to the brim AMNPS. Even if the pellets are burnt out after 9-10 hours of smoking the pork shoulder has absorbed more than enough smoke to see it through and there will be residual smoke hanging around inside the smoker if you don't open the door before the meat is done. At this point, I'm not going to add any more wood pellets. Update: the IT is 169° and we're about 7.75 hours in and there's still TBS to be seen.

 

[daricksta]

 
Another thing, the more you smoke, it becomes second nature on how much smoke different types of meat absorb and how quickly 

Gary

Do you an idea about how many years or how many smokes it took you to learn that? I'm quite a ways away from that. I'm still studying which types of wood pellets burn faster or slower than others.

 

[daricksta]

 
BTW - what do you guys do with that hard muscle part on the butt?  I pulled it and ate it separately.  It was good, but a little tough & dry.  I kept the tender meat separately.  Any ideas?

This is a great question. I didn't know before now there was a money muscle part of the pork butt/shoulder and we've slow cooked a lot of pork shoulder in my house for both pulled pork and carnitas.

Anyway, don't know if this is what you were referring to but here's a great page with a great short video on the money muscle and the "tubes" found in a pork butt/shoulder.

http://howtobbqright.com/blog/?p=763

 

[ajsmokes]

I don't have the AMNPS so I can't speak about it. But I smoke BUTTS all the time and apply smoke till I either foil or pan. If I don't do either I apply smoke the entire cook. But I have a catch pan on a rack below at all times. I like to solidify the fat for easier removal and have some of the best juices ever for making my finishing sauce

 

[kenafein]

 
Kenafein, I sincerely apologize. This isn't the first time I've misread a post very early in the morning. I should no better by now. My eyes filled in a missing word so that I thought you wrote that mummel needed to smoke to 140° instead of what you actually wrote.

However, I still disagree with your actual statement I don't want to start a fight either. But it just so happens I am smoking a pork shoulder today and the current IT is 158°. I'm shooting for a finish IT of 200° even though I have no idea how much longer it will take. Typically, a full AMNPS will burn for about 11 hours, give or take an hour or two. My plan is to just let the AMNPS burn out when it will. I won't add any additional pellets since by that time the pork shoulder will have absorbed more than enough smoke. I'm leaving the shoulder unfoiled throughout the smoke.

Again, I apologize for my misunderstanding and for the attitude.

No hard feelings, glad that worked out.  I did retract the 140 figure, in an earlier post, after reading some articles on AmazingRibs.  They said meat doesn't stop taking on smoke at 140, but they also said that meat generally has enough smoke flavor by 150-160 degrees that you can wrap.  That's usually when my AMNTS either burns out or I am ready to wrap, so it's been a good rule of thumb.  Bear says to smoke the whole way, if you don't wrap, so you're right on there.