Freezing and Thawing Meat for Grinding

[MeatCharter]

I wanted to make my life a little easier and vacuum seal and weigh out cubed meat for when I want to make a salami. I'm thinking of doing it in 1kg packages, 500g, 250g.

I've read you shouldn't grind frozen meat.

Now the question I have is how long do you thaw in the fridge from the freezer? This isn't going to be perfect. I would imagine cubed meat would thaw quicker than whole pieces, and larger pieces thaw slower than smaller ones. Basically, I'm trying to avoid thawing completely from the freezer and then needing to freeze again to grind.

If anyone has done this before, what's your experience been? How long does the meat thaw in the fridge from the freezer before you start grinding it?

 

[indaswamp]

The main reason why you should not cube and freeze meat for salami is bacterial load. you should ALWAYS start with whole muscles when making salami. Work fast, keep cold...

There are no shortcuts to this. This is the first safety hurdle. Everything builds on this.

 

[MeatCharter]

The main reason why you should not cube and freeze meat for salami is bacterial load. you should ALWAYS start with whole muscles when making salami. Work fast, keep cold...

There are no shortcuts to this. This is the first safety hurdle. Everything builds on this.

What's the difference between starting with a whole muscle, cutting into cubes, freezing to temp and grinding vs whole muscle, cutting into cubes, freezing entirely, thawing safely in fridge, and then grinding? Why would there be a big difference in bacterial load?

 

[chopsaw]

Surface area , and inside whole muscle meat is steril .

 

[MeatCharter]

Surface area , and inside whole muscle meat is steril .

You are cutting to smaller pieces in both processes.

 

[chopsaw]

I'm not here for an argument . Keith gave you good advice .

 

[MeatCharter]

I'm not here for an argument . Keith gave you good advice .

Sure. Just trying to understand the actual science behind that advice. The growth of bacteria of meat thawing from the freezer to the fridge wouldn't be much, especially if the meat temperatures are starting at frozen and ending at partially frozen.

 

[chopsaw]

I'm just stating a fact , I think indaswamp is thinking " Salami " as in fermented dry cured .
So start fresh with whole muscle and completing the process is the way to go .
If that is what you're doing , let him advise you .

If your making summer sausage , smoked sausage or something that will be cooked , then I don't see why it's an issue .
I do it myself . Used to do chunks , now I do 2 1/2 pound batches already ground , or some small 1 pound pre grinds . That way I can thaw . mix and cook on short notice .

That's for something that is cooked .

 

[indaswamp]

I suggest you dive into the 4 safety hurdles for salami and understand them...

 

[indaswamp]

*See link:
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/sausage-types/fermented-sausage/safety-hurdles

 

[MeatCharter]

I suggest you dive into the 4 safety hurdles for salami and understand them...

I'm reading Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages and I'm not seeing how going from freezer to thawing in fridge to partially frozen (32F) would increase bacterial load in any meaningful way.

From the book:
"It can be seen that at 32° F (0° C) bacteria needs as much as 38 hours to divide in two. That also means that if our piece of meat had a certain amount of bacteriaon its surface, after 38 hours of lying in a refrigerator the amount of bacteria inthe same piece of meat will double. If we move this meat from the refrigerator toa room having a temperature of 80° F (26.5° C) the bacteria will double up everyhour (12 times faster). At 90° F (32° C) they will be dividing every 30 minutes. "

 

[Dave in AZ]

I'm reading Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages and I'm not seeing how going from freezer to thawing in fridge to partially frozen (32F) would increase bacterial load in any meaningful way.

From the book:
"It can be seen that at 32° F (0° C) bacteria needs as much as 38 hours to divide in two. That also means that if our piece of meat had a certain amount of bacteriaon its surface, after 38 hours of lying in a refrigerator the amount of bacteria inthe same piece of meat will double. If we move this meat from the refrigerator toa room having a temperature of 80° F (26.5° C) the bacteria will double up everyhour (12 times faster). At 90° F (32° C) they will be dividing every 30 minutes. "

Inside a whole muscle is sterile. Bacteria are only on outer surface. AND IN AIR AND ON KNIFE AND HANDS AND GLOVES YOU TOUCH ANYTHING WITH. Bacteria can only start, and grow, on the outer surface. The instant you cut the meat in half, you almost double the surface area. This doubles the bacterial growth ability, AND because you thawed meat to cut, it also increases bacteria ability to grow.

By cubing a muscle, you increase bacterial risk, surface area, by about 100. By grinding, by 1000 or 10,000. And you ABSOLUTELY are introducing bacteria!

Unless you are working in a freezer or cold processing room, the surface mm of meat WILL WARM UP to above bacterial growth temps, and you WILL get a bacterial load onto the meat when chopping and grinding.

There are hurdles you can impose to bacterial growth, see all indaswamp And chopsaw said. If you are making ACTUAL salami, the highest risk product, then you need to use ALL the hurdles to inhibit bacteria.

If you're actually making something like summer sausage or bologna, where it is thawed for an hour, cured overnight in fridge, then rapidly heated to > 130f for pathogen lethality, then less care is needed. In this case, you can cube or grind stuff and freeze for use within a few weeks to avoid oxidation.

I have 3kg of ground pork in freezer from last week, gonna make that cotto salami being discussed recently. No issues, not a real salami. If I was making a dry cured aged salami, I would start whole muscle, cut with sterile knife, gloves, sterile board; grind with sterile grinder; innoculate and ferment immediately; then drop to 55f for drying ASAP.
Hope that is helpful! ;)

Oh, p.s. to your original question: the main reason some say not to grinf frozen meat is purely due to weak grinders. In fact, I absolutely recommend that your meat is still partially frozen, maybe 29-30f, before grinding! Soft enough to press and deforem with fingers, but not floppy thawed, still firm enough that grinder knives will bite and cut clean, not pull/tear/rip/deform like happens with meat >40f. Also, fat will grind without smearing into discrete particles that won't melt and will resist fat-out better. This is the MAIN REASON to get a bigger grinder, the ability to grind partially frozen meat.

 

[DougE]

I absolutely recommend that your meat is still partially frozen, maybe 29-30f, before grinding! Soft enough to press and deforem with fingers, but not floppy thawed, still firm enough that grinder knives will bite and cut clean, not pull/tear/rip/deform like happens with meat >40f.

How I always grind, and my Weston 8# home grade 575 watt outfit will eat it without much of a grunt. I wouldn't call it big or powerful, but it gets the job done just fine.

 

[MeatCharter]

Inside a whole muscle is sterile. Bacteria are only on outer surface. AND IN AIR AND ON KNIFE AND HANDS AND GLOVES YOU TOUCH ANYTHING WITH. Bacteria can only start, and grow, on the outer surface. The instant you cut the meat in half, you almost double the surface area. This doubles the bacterial growth ability, AND because you thawed meat to cut, it also increases bacteria ability to grow.

By cubing a muscle, you increase bacterial risk, surface area, by about 100. By grinding, by 1000 or 10,000. And you ABSOLUTELY are introducing bacteria!

Unless you are working in a freezer or cold processing room, the surface mm of meat WILL WARM UP to above bacterial growth temps, and you WILL get a bacterial load onto the meat when chopping and grinding.

There are hurdles you can impose to bacterial growth, see all indaswamp And chopsaw said. If you are making ACTUAL salami, the highest risk product, then you need to use ALL the hurdles to inhibit bacteria.

If you're actually making something like summer sausage or bologna, where it is thawed for an hour, cured overnight in fridge, then rapidly heated to > 130f for pathogen lethality, then less care is needed. In this case, you can cube or grind stuff and freeze for use within a few weeks to avoid oxidation.

I have 3kg of ground pork in freezer from last week, gonna make that cotto salami being discussed recently. No issues, not a real salami. If I was making a dry cured aged salami, I would start whole muscle, cut with sterile knife, gloves, sterile board; grind with sterile grinder; innoculate and ferment immediately; then drop to 55f for drying ASAP.
Hope that is helpful! ;)

Oh, p.s. to your original question: the main reason some say not to grinf frozen meat is purely due to weak grinders. In fact, I absolutely recommend that your meat is still partially frozen, maybe 29-30f, before grinding! Soft enough to press and deforem with fingers, but not floppy thawed, still firm enough that grinder knives will bite and cut clean, not pull/tear/rip/deform like happens with meat >40f. Also, fat will grind without smearing into discrete particles that won't melt and will resist fat-out better. This is the MAIN REASON to get a bigger grinder, the ability to grind partially frozen meat.

I agree with all of this, but this is the part I would contend, "AND because you thawed meat to cut, it also increases bacteria ability to grow."

I agree it greatly increases the bacteria's ability to grow under normal conditions, but there's really not much an ability for it to grow when you are going from fully frozen to partially frozen in a fridge, "at 32° F (0° C) bacteria needs as much as 38 hours to divide in two".

Thanks for the grinder info. I have a Meat Your Maker #22 1HP. I'm never wanting for more power. How long do you find it takes to go from fully frozen to partially frozen?

 

[DougE]

I'm reading Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages and I'm not seeing how going from freezer to thawing in fridge to partially frozen (32F) would increase bacterial load in any meaningful way.

From the book:
"It can be seen that at 32° F (0° C) bacteria needs as much as 38 hours to divide in two. That also means that if our piece of meat had a certain amount of bacteriaon its surface, after 38 hours of lying in a refrigerator the amount of bacteria inthe same piece of meat will double. If we move this meat from the refrigerator toa room having a temperature of 80° F (26.5° C) the bacteria will double up everyhour (12 times faster). At 90° F (32° C) they will be dividing every 30 minutes. "

While I have the book you quote from, I'd defer to indaswamp when it comes to safely hurdles with dry curing salami. He has done a ton of research on the subject.

 

[DougE]

I agree it greatly increases the bacteria's ability to grow under normal conditions, but there's really not much an ability for it to grow when you are going from fully frozen to partially frozen in a fridge, "at 32°

While you're cutting this butt into chunks, you are contaminating all sides of said chunks with surface bacteria/airborne bacteria, and they are not under refrigeration during this process unless you happen to have a cold room.

 

[MeatCharter]

While you're cutting this butt into chunks, you are contaminating all sides of said chunks with surface bacteria/airborne bacteria, and they are not under refrigeration during this process.

Yep, but you are doing the same when you are starting from fresh pork, freezing to partially frozen, and then grinding.

The only difference is I'd be freezing fully, then going back to partially frozen (in the fridge) before grinding. So your only difference in terms of having bacterial growth is going from that frozen product to partially frozen, and for quoted part of the book above, I don't see it bringing much bacterial growth.

 

[DougE]

Not exactly. With going straight through from cubing, to grinding, to mixing in salt, cure, and culture, the grind has at least a couple hurdles met, already and the PH will drop, meeting another, when the culture has had time to do its thing.

 

[MeatCharter]

Not exactly. With going straight through from cubing, to grinding, to mixing in salt, cure, and culture, the grind has at least a couple hurdles met, already and the PH will drop, meeting another, when the culture has had time to do its thing.

Not following you. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to grind the meat prior to freezing.

Workflow #1:
Fresh Meat > Cubed Meat>Freeze Partially> Grind>Mix salt, cure, culture

Workflow #2:
Fresh Meat > Cubed Meat>Freeze Fully>Freeze Partially> Grind>Mix salt, cure, culture

I'm trying to do Workflow #2.

 

[indaswamp]

The secondary issue is fat integrity. Frozen fat should not be used when making salami. Twice frozen fat is a recipe for disaster with fat out when drying.

Fat oxidizes rapidly....even in the freezer. Cell destruction from the ice crystals pretty much guarantees you will have issues with fat out if used in a salami.

I guess the best way to learn is from mistakes. Have at it.....unless you want to learn from mine. I'm done here.