Freeze smoked sausage before cooking?

[Tejasmoke]

I have searched this topic, but haven't really found a definitive answer. Can I smoke sausage (with cure) and go straight to the freezer with it? I have always smoked for about 3 hours and then poached in 165° water until the IT reaches 155°. I understand that not cooking it immediately after smoking would not be considered a best practice, but is it "OK" to do it? To be clear, I would clearly mark the packaging as "uncooked". Also, whenever I eat smoked sausage it goes on the grill and is subjected to safe temps. If you believe that this would be an unsafe technique would you offer a short explanation as to why, please. Thanks in advance for your responses!

PS - Feel free to ask for clarifications if I haven't been clear.

 

[kelbro]

Cooked or safe? 155 for a few minutes makes the meat 'safe'. You would need to look up the time required for pasteurization of your particular protein at 155.

 

[jbo_c]

I cold smoke, then freeze most of the time. As long as the meat goes to food safe temp prior to eating, I’m not sure why it would matter.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding the question or oversimplifying?

Jbo

 

[smokerjim]

Deleted, dont want to give bad info

 

[Tejasmoke]

Cooked or safe? 155 for a few minutes makes the meat 'safe'. You would need to look up the time required for pasteurization of your particular protein at 155.

I guess I've always considered "cooked" and "safe" to be the same thing, am I wrong about that?

 

[SmokinEdge]

I have searched this topic, but haven't really found a definitive answer. Can I smoke sausage (with cure) and go straight to the freezer with it? I have always smoked for about 3 hours and then poached in 165° water until the IT reaches 155°. I understand that not cooking it immediately after smoking would not be considered a best practice, but is it "OK" to do it? To be clear, I would clearly mark the packaging as "uncooked". Also, whenever I eat smoked sausage it goes on the grill and is subjected to safe temps. If you believe that this would be an unsafe technique would you offer a short explanation as to why, please. Thanks in advance for your responses!

PS - Feel free to ask for clarifications if I haven't been clear.

What temp are you smoking at, and what is the IT of the sausage coming out of the smoke?

 

[indaswamp]

but is it "OK" to do it?

Here is the issue....
yes, cure #1 will help alleviate the concern regarding botulism, and it will help control the growth of other pathogens, but some potential pathogens are not greatly affected by nitrites. Those being Staphylococcus Aureus and Listeria to name just two....there are others. So if you are cold smoking at temperatures above 60*F, those pathogenic bacteria will grow-and this is especially so in meats other than those being dry cured because they do not have the same level of safety hurdles...namely salt concentration above 2.5%, and an acidic profile, drying temp. below 60*F.

Having said that-here is the problem. As long as the temp. remains above 60*F, there is potential for these pathogens to grow in commuted meats like sausage. If you are going to proceed with your plan, I highly recommend cold smoking below 45*F, and ideally 32-41*F.

They will resume growth once thawed so the population could reach an unhealthy range.

 

[Tejasmoke]

What temp are you smoking at, and what is the IT of the sausage coming out of the smoke?

I typically smoke it for about 3 hours with a smokehouse temp. of 140°. The IT of the sausage when it comes out of the smokehouse is about 120° - 125°.

 

[DougE]

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I typically smoke it for about 3 hours with a smokehouse temp. of 140°. The IT of the sausage when it comes out of the smokehouse is about 120° - 125°.

I'd either poach or finish in Sous vide to an IT of 151~152°, cold water bath, hang to bloom/dry, then freeze.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I typically smoke it for about 3 hours with a smokehouse temp. of 140°. The IT of the sausage when it comes out of the smokehouse is about 120° - 125°.

You need to finish at this point to safe IT. 145* for pork or 152* for beef. Then cool and freeze.

If you can keep the cold smoke below 80* you would be fine to freeze, but once you go over that you have to finish to a safe IT.

 

[Tejasmoke]

Here is the issue....
yes, cure #1 will help alleviate the concern regarding botulism, and it will help control the growth of other pathogens, but some potential pathogens are not greatly affected by nitrites. Those being Staphylococcus Aureus and Listeria to name just two....there are others. So if you are cold smoking at temperatures above 60*F, those pathogenic bacteria will grow-and this is especially so in meats other than those being dry cured because they do not have the same level of safety hurdles...namely salt concentration above 2.5%, and an acidic profile, drying temp. below 60*F.

Having said that-here is the problem. As long as the temp. remains above 60*F, there is potential for these pathogens to grow in commuted meats like sausage. If you are going to proceed with your plan, I highly recommend cold smoking below 45*F, and ideally 32-41*F.

They will resume growth once thawed so the population could reach an unhealthy range.

I appreciate your response and understand what you are saying, BUT...if I pull it out of the freezer, thaw it safely in the refrig., and put it in my kettle that is at 300°, or more, and leave it in there until the IT is 175° it seems that I will have fulfilled the safe cooking requirement for the sausage. I swear, I'm not trying to be stubborn...just trying to learn!

 

[Tejasmoke]

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I'd either poach or finish in Sous vide to an IT of 151~152°, cold water bath, hang to bloom/dry, then freeze.

That is exactly what I have always done and am happy doing it that way, but sometimes it's hard leaving well enough alone! I appreciate your input!

 

[indaswamp]

I appreciate your response and understand what you are saying, BUT...if I pull it out of the freezer, thaw it safely in the refrig., and put it in my kettle that is at 300°, or more, and leave it in there until the IT is 175° it seems that I will have fulfilled the safe cooking requirement for the sausage. I swear, I'm not trying to be stubborn...just trying to learn!

It is not recommended to do what you want to do. A temp. of 120-125*F is not a high enough temp. to pasteurize the meat. The bacteria will still grow while cooling and will resume growth once thawed....until an internal temp of 136*F for 30 minutes has been achieved which would be a log 5 reduction in pathogens.

The concern is the amount of time in the danger zone for those pathogens that cure does not affect. The potential is there for an unsafe product...which is why it is not a good practice. Now, can you do it? Maybe....but no commercial processor would even attempt it.

 

[Tejasmoke]

You need to finish at this point to safe IT. 145* for pork or 152* for beef. Then cool and freeze.

If you can keep the cold smoke below 80* you would be fine to freeze, but once you go over that you have to finish to a safe IT.

Well, I guess you're in good company, indaswamp agrees with you 100%!

 

[DougE]

I still finish to 151`152° even if I don't hit the 80 ° mark during cold smoking just to be on the safe side.

 

[Tejasmoke]

It is not recommended to do what you want to do. A temp. of 120-125*F is not a high enough temp. to pasteurize the meat. The bacteria will still grow while cooling and will resume growth once thawed....until an internal temp of 136*F for 30 minutes has been achieved which would be a log 5 reduction in pathogens.

The concern is the amount of time in the danger zone for those pathogens that cure does not affect. The potential is there for an unsafe product...which is why it is not a good practice. Now, can you do it? Maybe....but no commercial processor would even attempt it.

I am not the least bit interested in taking any unnecessary chances. I will continue to poach after smoking, as I've always done. After all, the poach is the easiest part of the process as far as I'm concerned. Thank you for your help.

 

[indaswamp]

you can either lower the smoking temp. low enough so that the internal temp of the sausages does not rise above 60*F, or cook to pasteurization temp. of 136*F and hold that for minimum of 30 minutes...i.e LOG5 reduction. Hour and a half would be LOG7 reduction. The later would be my recommendation.

 

[indaswamp]

The thing to keep in mind is pasteurization. You CAN pasteurize commuted meats @123*F, BUT you MUST have a higher salt content..greater or equal to 2.5% AND a pH below 5.2.... this is one of the ways commercial processors ensure salami is safe in the U.S. Without those two safety hurdles, the safe lowest temp. is 131*F for commuted meats but the time is lengthened greatly...it's like an hour and a half for LOG5 reduction.

 

[DougE]

After all, the poach is the easiest part of the process as far as I'm concerned.

Also makes cooking the sausages at a later time faster, since they're pretty much cooked already. Just sear/reheat/eat

 

[SmokinEdge]

The real problem is that 120~ish final temp. This is where bacteria, if they exist, is multiplying at light speed, then through the cool down continue to multiply, and potentially creat toxin, which you cannot cook out of the product. This is the biggest thing people don’t get. If the bacteria are able to make toxins, those toxins cant be taken out of the meat.