Dry Brining and sous vide

[realoldnick]

I recently decided to try dry brining and my first attempt was with chicken breast.

I trimmed down the slightly larger one to be as close as possible to the smaller one. By weight and size they were very close (~5%).

I used 1/4 tspn salt per pound (450 gm) of meat on one breast. as suggested by Meathead from amazing ribs. I did not brine the other. I left them for maybe 4:30 hrs in the fridge, in a zip bag (told to do that so as to not dry out the chicken).

I then cooked them both in the same SV bath for 2 hours at 56C, then 45 minutes at 61C, just to bring them up to acceptable "cookedness" (I would go to 62C next time). When they were done I did not ice bath them, but put them in the freezer for about 15-20 minutes. I then put them in the fridge.

The result of a blind test by my wife was that she instantly picked the brined bit, because we eat no salt in my cooking and very little at other times. I could also taste it, even when I carefully selected a piece that had no surface meat on it.. Because of our low salt diet, we will at least need some tries to describe it as "flavour"...however.

We both found the brined piece to seem _more_ cooked than the other bit. It was softer and had less setructure...bite...to it. It did not seem markedly juicier. The non-brined piece was "zippy" to bite, but was definitely not raw inside. For the first time my wife said it was close to seeming undercooked and she has never said that.

So. Anyone got any idea about why the brined breast was softer and not juicier; why it seemed more cooked for exactly the same cook time and temp?

Don't get me wrong. They were both still stunning to eat. I am just curious of others' experience and theories.

Looking forward to ideas, with gratitude.

Nick

 

[JCAP]

I have no idea except that I wouldn’t expect the brine to impact juiciness in sous vide cooking like it probably would on the grill or in the oven. One of the benefits of sous vide is juicy products anyway!

I usually just season right before starting to sous vide unless it’s a marinade of some sort that I want to give a little time to work. If you want to brine, try for just an hour or so instead of the 4 you used.

And when I cook chicken sous vide my wife also said that the breast had a weird texture!

 

[Inscrutable]

Brining will alter the proteins structure, in turn affecting the muscle filaments ... helps to hold more moisture and also tenderizing. Probably seems more of an improvement if grilling or smoking, perhaps of marginal value for sous-vide.

 

[realoldnick]

Hi guys. Hmmm....OK, yeah I wondered if brining was going to be a real advantage, but I thought I would give it a go. Just seemed funny that it seemed to have the opposite effect from what I was expecting.

I used the longer brine time so that I could be sure the salt would get right through and not just sit on the surface, when, yeah, certainly in sous vide that would be a waste of time.

Interesting that your wife said that the chicken had a weird texture jcap. Was it the same result as mine?....sort of zippy? OOI what temp did you cook for and for how long?
Nick

 

[dr k]

This is a good write up on dry brining and how salt inhibits myosin's ability to coagulate during cooking which makes meat more tender and can't contract as much to expel its own juices. Then poultry is a softer meat compared to four legged animals and the salted poultry under vacuum and water pressure may affect its ability to hold juice inside the meat. This Thermoworks article has other meat dry bring durations as well.
https://blog.thermoworks.com/turkey/how-to-dry-brine-a-turkey/

 

[realoldnick]

OK Doc. I will check it out. I have some porterhouse that I have brined ready for a cook tomorrow....OHHHH NOOOO! I have to test it!

I am actually going to cook 3 pieces: brined today, brined tomorrow and not brined. OHHHH NOOOO! I have to test it!

 

[dr k]

OK Doc. I will check it out. I have some porterhouse that I have brined ready for a cook tomorrow....OHHHH NOOOO! I have to test it!

I am actually going to cook 3 pieces: brined today, brined tomorrow and not brined. OHHHH NOOOO! I have to test it!

Salting/dry brining works better at room temp than the fridge to get the surface of the meat less rigid and if I have the time I let it pre rest an hour an inch. So I'll salt rest a 1.5" steak 1.5 hours and it'll be eaten within 2 hours. If I don't have the time (at least 40 minutes), I'll season just before cooking to keep as much liquid in the meat. You can over salt and rinse the steak and dry with paper towels before seasoning (with spices without salt) and will find that during the rinsing the steak is much more tender and separating with the grain. This steak will cook more quickly than not dry brining and pre resting. Some will say that the myoglobin/water from brining is no longer in the meat and would be dry but when extensive dry aging and the loss of 25% in water weight, the meat is juicy. It wouldn't be a little myglobin/water loss, it's the effect sodium and chloride ions have with myosin and its relaxed state and the ability for meat to accomadate rendering intramuscular marbling fat (juicy, tender and flavorful.)

 

[gnatboy911]

Check out this experiment on salt....

https://stefangourmet.com/2018/04/02/pork-loin-or-tenderloin-sous-vide-to-brine-or-not-to-brine/

I've found that pork dramatically benefits from a few hour dry brine before sous vide.

 

[JCAP]

Interesting that your wife said that the chicken had a weird texture jcap. Was it the same result as mine?....sort of zippy? OOI what temp did you cook for and for how long?

I think it was the same as you’re describing. Definitely not the same as off the grill or out of the oven. It was incredibly delicious though......I did 150F/65.5C for 90 minutes.

 

[realoldnick]

I think it was the same as you’re describing. Definitely not the same as off the grill or out of the oven. It was incredibly delicious though......I did 150F/65.5C for 90 minutes.

Yes I never had such consistently amazing chicken breasts as since I started using sous vide. I did my first "catering" (for a large family weekend away) by providing the chicken and everybody raved.

And like your experience, no other method delivers the same taste and texture.

Nick

 

[realoldnick]

Hey dr k.

One thing I feel the need to stress here is that the technique I am trying is a lot different from the usual dry brining. The amount of salt used is small and is all meant to be absorbed. I can see that it will still affect the meat more over a longer time, but far less than using a lot of salt and removing what is left after the brining. _Hopefully_ that means that leaving the meat for longer will not have quite the drastic effect that leaving a heavily-brined piece would have.

BUT."This (brined) steak will cook more quickly than not dry brining and pre resting. "

Is telling and may explain why the meat seemed more "cooked" in my brined chook.

 

[realoldnick]

This is a good write up on dry brining and how salt inhibits myosin's ability to coagulate during cooking which makes meat more tender and can't contract as much to expel its own juices. Then poultry is a softer meat compared to four legged animals and the salted poultry under vacuum and water pressure may affect its ability to hold juice inside the meat. This Thermoworks article has other meat dry bring durations as well.
https://blog.thermoworks.com/turkey/how-to-dry-brine-a-turkey/

I have read a few articles on why it happens, but I will read what you recommend. Always willing to learn and experiment.

Don't get me wrong. The brined piece was still tender and juicy, just surprisingly softer and a _bit_ drier than the non-brined piece.

Having perused stuff, I wonder if chicken meat is softer because has different proteins or protein ratios. I saw that "overdone" actin goes mushy and can get dry, where cooked myosin becomes tender and if stopped from contracting, will be soft but juicy.....

....and then I started getting into a realm where even the meat scientists still seem insure and are disagreeing with each other :)

Nick

 

[realoldnick]

Check out this experiment on salt....

https://stefangourmet.com/2018/04/02/pork-loin-or-tenderloin-sous-vide-to-brine-or-not-to-brine/

I've found that pork dramatically benefits from a few hour dry brine before sous vide.

Thanks yeah read it just now. Interesting. I will try with pork when that time comes around again :)

I did not go into weighing etc, just tasting (a far more difficult process I might add! :) )

 

[JCAP]

Hey realoldnick , here's an article about lo-salt brining from Cook's Illustrated. Might be worth a shot if it interests you.

https://www.cooksillustrated.com/how_tos/6055-low-salt-brining

I've also heard folks recommend buttermilk overnight with your rub but I've never tried that one.

 

[realoldnick]

Brining will alter the proteins structure, in turn affecting the muscle filaments ... helps to hold more moisture and also tenderizing. Probably seems more of an improvement if grilling or smoking, perhaps of marginal value for sous-vide.

Just to revisit. I have tried various ways and times of dry brining and I am beginning to think that, as you say, it is of limited use in sous vide, except as seasoning. Both my wife and I preferred the short brine, of less than an hour. It gave the meat a definite flavour profile, rather than just being slightly saline right through.

If I place meat in a vacuum bag, then cook slowly as usual, the salt will start to infuse anyway.