Corned beef

[SmokinEdge]

All good info tallbm , as usual. But if this statement from you is fact, then how to the produce country hams in the US, and Parma hams in Italy? They are large whole muscle 20# plus pieces of dry cured meat. How would this be possible if this is true:

Some more info to consider when Dry Curing meat.
Salt and Cure #1 will travel about 1/4 inch per day into the meat. So a flat cut like pork belly or brisket flat for corned beef will get 1/4 inch from all direction so you can get like 1/2 a day total top and bottom.

This is important to know because if the meat is too thick then the salt and cure will not have a chance to penetrate properly and/or in enough time to cure the meat before it goes bad.
This is when you should really consider a Wet Cure.

 

[tallbm]

All good info tallbm , as usual. But if this statement from you is fact, then how to the produce country hams in the US, and Parma hams in Italy? They are large whole muscle 20# plus pieces of dry cured meat. How would this be possible if this is true:

Good questions.

Country Ham Talk
I've never made one of those country hams so I cannot tell you from experience about it. I can only speak to what I've read about them as I did my reading on various forms of curing during my curing journey :)

The country hams are made not using any nitrate or nitrite and are salt and sugar etc. They are done by controlling humidity, temp, and by using the bacteria fighting properties of salt and sugar and they are tended to quite a bit to ensure the whole process is going properly.

My understanding is that the hams work because of they ultimately achieve a 4%+ salt equalization across the entire ham while also losing at least 18% water weight, all while being stored and managed in the proper environment (temp and humidity).
USDA says 10% salt equalization minimum.
At this point bacteria cannot live and do it's bad thing within the ham.

The hardcore curing folks on here can speak more to this but here the USDA info I found on country hams from govinfo.gov: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2012-title9-vol2/pdf/CFR-2012-title9-vol2-sec319-106.pdf

This is all quite a bit different then a cure#1 situation we are discussing most of the time.
Dry curing situations, cure #2, are also brought up some on the forum but that is like a combo of cure#1 and country ham curing practices since a cure is used (cure#2) AND dehydration weight loss is done in a controlled environment as well.

General Curing Talk
Cure #1 is what we are talking about with the corned beef in this case it is mostly for flavor purposes.

If it needed to really go for safety purposes then a cure#1 technique that best fit's the meat thickness would need to be picked.
If the meat is thin enough then Dry Cure with cure#1 at salt levels like 1.5-2% would work no problem. A wet cure would also work but would add more liquid to the meat which is ok in some cases but not desired in other cases.

If the meat is too thick then a Wet Cure with injection would be the way to go since it speeds up the process greatly AND with the injection can get as deep into the meat as needed.

Cure #1 meat is then cooked with some sort of heat before eating. This is not the case with Cure#2 or the Country Ham style of of curing.

Cure #2 is for a different purpose all together. That meat is usually eaten without ever being cooked by a heat source. So you make charcuterie type items with it. This process also needs a much more controlled environment and needs the meat to lose a certain percentage of moisture weight as well.
The nitrate that becomes nitrite works over a long period of time (weeks/months) where that is not the case with Cure#1.
This approach is closer to the Country Ham curing technique BUT with the added safety of nitrate/nitrite to help things along.

I've done a few instances of this BUT I used the UMAI bag technology which is like "easy mode" for cure#2 items. The company basically used science to make it all easier so a fool like me can follow the instructions, add the proper salt, sugar, cure#2, etc. and use my garage fridge to make stuff like prosciutto and capicola with their bag technology.

Conclusion
I'm not at all an overall curing guru by any means so some other guys on here can add to or correct anything I may have misstated, but this is my research and understanding on the topic(s).

I cure #1 stuff a number of times a year. Using both dry and wet cure techniques, applying them properly for the food I want to make. From dry cured bacon to wet cured and injected pork shoulders to make my holiday "hams".
I also cure#1 stuff for flavor like doing turkey and turkey drums for the amazing flavor even though there is no situation where bacteria and safety are a concern lol.

I cure #2 stuff maybe once a year and I use UMAI bags.
I've NEVER country ham style cured anything or done a curing chamber product with cure#2 without the UMAI bags.

Curing can be an amazing area to work in and a very extensive field to get into. I find it super interesting BUT I'm not motivated to go to far beyond the few items I do today. Even though I like to read up on it sometimes :D

I hope this info helps answer the questions you may have had and helps anyone who has the same questions or is getting into the curing game like N Nefarious

SmokinEdge let me know if all of my rambling here makes sense and if that USDA doc helps provide a little support to the info I'm speaking about. I like to provide some kind of valid evidence to verify my words so people have the proper info. We all know how easy it is to put something out there on the internet that may be incorrect. I want to try and put out good info that people can rely upon.

If anyone sees anything I've misstated or plain got wrong, PLEASE speak up. I don't want to get anyone sick or accidently mislead anyone who may come across this post of mine :)

 

[thirdeye]

The country hams I recall my Grandfather and kinfolk making as a little boy were cured with a lot of salt but had saltpetre and I believe sugar on board. After a month or 6 weeks, the hams were unwrapped and the cure was washed off the surface. Then it took 3 or 4 months of aging for that distinct country ham flavor..... which I still don't really care for.

 

[Nefarious]

Sorry I am out at a soccer game. I couldn't contribute to this anyway, I will try to digest it tomorrow. Go Sounders.

 

[Nefarious]

The tricky part for you N Nefarious is getting the salt where you like it (low) but still producing a safe product.

Finally, I didnt notice an answer to your question about using cure#1 for corned beef so here goes.
The main reason to use cure #1 on corned beef is to get that exact flavor and pink/reddish color we see with corned beef and pastrami.

Let me know if this marathon post makes any sense :D

I'm confused about these two statements. Is the salt for a safe product as well as it being 'Corned' beef, and the cure #1 for the cure flavor?

My process is, and maybe it will change, brine for however long it takes to infuse the cure, salt, and aromatics and then immediately cook. I don't know if that makes a difference.

I know there has to be a level of salt, otherwise it wouldn't be corned beef, it would be a braised brisket.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I'm confused about these two statements. Is the salt for a safe product as well as it being 'Corned' beef, and the cure #1 for the cure flavor?

In the traditional sense, the salt and the cure #1 are both there in sufficient amounts as to control bacterial growth. While both of their rolls are safety in main function, the secondary effect is flavor and color of the meat product as well as some control of fat rancidity if stored for longer periods.

 

[tallbm]

I'm confused about these two statements. Is the salt for a safe product as well as it being 'Corned' beef, and the cure #1 for the cure flavor?

My process is, and maybe it will change, brine for however long it takes to infuse the cure, salt, and aromatics and then immediately cook. I don't know if that makes a difference.

I know there has to be a level of salt, otherwise it wouldn't be corned beef, it would be a braised brisket.

SmokinEdge had the right answer just above.

I'll continue to elaborate on your questions to hopefully help with any confusion in those specific areas.

I'm confused about these two statements. Is the salt for a safe product as well as it being 'Corned' beef, and the cure #1 for the cure flavor?

• Salt + Cure #1 are used together for a safe product, where Cure#1 does the heaviest lifting (you are not applying for safety reasons though, I'll get to this topic further below)
• Cure#1 will give you the wonderful cure flavor that we all love in bacon and in stuff like corned beef or pastrami. and you can also tell cure#1 is being used due to the color change in the meat. Here is my brisket salted and smoked like BBQ and here is my brisket cured with Cure#1 and Salt for Pastrami. Notice how one looks like BBQ and is kinda grey in meat color and the other looks like sandwich meat and is pink in color.
  BBQ Brisket
  
  
  Pastrami
  
  

My process is, and maybe it will change, brine for however long it takes to infuse the cure, salt, and aromatics and then immediately cook. I don't know if that makes a difference.

• I think you are cooking/steaming like a normal "roast" which actually does not run into safety issues while cooking. So in this case cure#1 is simply for the taste, texture, and color that you get/want with Corned Beef. If you don't add Cure #1 you won't get that flavor, that pink color, and that change in texture. What you would get roast beef or braised beef.
• If you are only worried about getting salt all the way into the meat in a safe period of time, you could easily just do a salt Equilibrium brine where you inject the brine solution into the meat all over. This would ensure your meat was brined well and evenly so fast it would be done in a safe amount of time while in the fridge (2-3 days). This however would not give you the cured flavor, color, and texture that corned beef or pastrami have (see my pictures above)

So you basically have a variety of techniques to use depending on what your situation calls for.

I've brined many a giant chicken or turkey with just salt before BUT I inject the brine all into the bird so it penetrates within a 1-3 days while in the fridge. I then cook them at normal hot temps like any chicken or turkey is cooked. Job done.

I've also wet cured the birds the same way where I used cure#1 to get the different flavor and texture I wanted. There is never any safety risk in my brine/cure time or my cooking time/temps but I am going for the flavor and texture here :D

Finally, I've done meat products like stuffed and smoked link/ring sausage where I added cure#1 because the cooking/smoking process would create dangerous spoiled meat of I tried it without cure#1. So in that application it was a must for safety.

It's all about picking the proper process for the needs or wants of what you are making.

So rule of thumb for cured meat we cook :

• If unsafe amount of time brining then use cure #1 for safety
• If unsafe amount of time cooking then use cure #1 for safety
• If wanting taste, color, texture then use cure #1 and safety not an issue
• If wanting to infuse salt and flavors throughout a big cut of meat in a safe period of time then Equilibrium brine + inject and no need to use cure #1 and safety not an issue

I know there has to be a level of salt, otherwise it wouldn't be corned beef, it would be a braised brisket.

• You are correct here. Your cure#1 is strictly to achieve flavor and texture. I've never had corned beef that was uncured. I have had plenty of roast or braised beef done the same way (with different flavor spices) and it was exactly that... roast or braised beef. Definitely not corned beef or pastrami :D

I hope this helps to clear up some confusion. If not then please keep asking questions. I don't always explain things the best way possible BUT I'm always willing to keep trying haha :D

 

[Nefarious]

SmokinEdge had the right answer just above.
I hope this helps to clear up some confusion. If not then please keep asking questions. I don't always explain things the best way possible BUT I'm always willing to keep trying haha :D

Thank you for the effort to make all of this clear. There just happens to be so much information and many choices, it's like drinking from a fire hose, But I do think I understand.

What I want is a traditional corned beef with as little salt as I can get away with so when someone eats it, they say 'Corned Beef' all of the salt only versions have tasted like a very flavorful pot roast.

Here is what I think I need:
I will have a small about 5lb trimmed brisket that I will cure at .25% by weight of the brisket and water. I will add salt at 1.25% of weight of the brisket and water. This will give a cured corned beef with a total of 1.5% salt, including what is in the cure.

I will boil the aromatics and cool in refrigerator over night, add the cure and brine covered in the refrigerator agitating every day.

Once I test this I can add more salt if needed for the traditional flavor until the salt becomes too much. If the salt is too much, we will just not eat it as often.

Does that sound like a good starting spot?

 

[SmokinEdge]

Thank you for the effort to make all of this clear. There just happens to be so much information and many choices, it's like drinking from a fire hose, But I do think I understand.

What I want is a traditional corned beef with as little salt as I can get away with so when someone eats it, they say 'Corned Beef' all of the salt only versions have tasted like a very flavorful pot roast.

Here is what I think I need:
I will have a small about 5lb trimmed brisket that I will cure at .25% by weight of the brisket. I will add salt at 1.25% of weight of the brisket. This will give a cured corned beef with a total of 1.5% salt, including what is in the cure.

I will boil the aromatics and cool in refrigerator over night, add the cure and brine covered in the refrigerator agitating every day.

Once I test this I can add more salt if needed for the traditional flavor until the salt becomes too much. If the salt is too much, we will just not eat it as often.

Does that sound like a good starting spot?

I’m on board. Sounds good. I’m excited for your new journey and your results.

 

[Nefarious]

I’m on board. Sounds good. I’m excited for your new journey and your results.

I have been reading both of the marianski books. In a couple of week I won't be driving for a while, part of it even walking so I will get some more good reading. Thanks for all of your help, it is very appreciated.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I have been reading both of the marianski books. In a couple of week I won't be driving for a while, part of it even walking so I will get some more good reading. Thanks for all of your help, it is very appreciated.

Marianski is very heavy handed in salt recommendations but this is because his methods and recipes are greatly influenced by Polish post WWII recipes with no refrigeration. Keep this in mind as you read. He is trying to be safe post war torn Poland in 1945. We have sanitation and refrigeration today, so we don’t need to be as strict.

 

[thirdeye]

Here is what I think I need:
I will have a small about 5lb trimmed brisket that I will cure at .25% by weight of the brisket. I will add salt at 1.25% of weight of the brisket. This will give a cured corned beef with a total of 1.5% salt, including what is in the cure.

I will boil the aromatics and cool in refrigerator over night, add the cure and brine covered in the refrigerator agitating every day.

Does that sound like a good starting spot?

Hold on a second, I'm confused..... But this is not unusual.

Am I correct in that you are measuring Cure #1 and salt based on brisket weight? Then, are you putting that brisket into an aromatic brine, that will cover the meat? What about the weight of the water in the bucket?

 

[Nefarious]

Hold on a second, I'm confused..... But this is not unusual.

Am I correct in that you are measuring Cure #1 and salt based on brisket weight? Then, are you putting that brisket into an aromatic brine, that will cover the meat? What about the weight of the water in the bucket?

yep, forgot about that in the post. I do have it correct in the notes. I appreciate you catching that.

 

[thirdeye]

I've done the same more than once.

 

[tallbm]

Thank you for the effort to make all of this clear. There just happens to be so much information and many choices, it's like drinking from a fire hose, But I do think I understand.

What I want is a traditional corned beef with as little salt as I can get away with so when someone eats it, they say 'Corned Beef' all of the salt only versions have tasted like a very flavorful pot roast.

Here is what I think I need:
I will have a small about 5lb trimmed brisket that I will cure at .25% by weight of the brisket and water. I will add salt at 1.25% of weight of the brisket and water. This will give a cured corned beef with a total of 1.5% salt, including what is in the cure.

I will boil the aromatics and cool in refrigerator over night, add the cure and brine covered in the refrigerator agitating every day.

Once I test this I can add more salt if needed for the traditional flavor until the salt becomes too much. If the salt is too much, we will just not eat it as often.

Does that sound like a good starting spot?

Yeah this can definitely be like drinking from a fountain. Now that you know there is a giant whole world of curing (cure#1, cure#2, old world salt style, etc.) you can kind of dial in on one area (cure#1 for now) and then revisit the others if you ever need to.

Your salt content and process should be perfectly fine. Depending on the type of meat I find 1.6% - 1.8% salt to be a great range for a good amount of salt flavor without getting too salty. You are using good amounts of cure and salt, so you should be fine for safety while brining. Plus, you are hot cooking your corned beef. That will kill anything with heat temps at cooking time as well so the cooking process is no risk.

I think you have it figured out for your corned beef and it will come out tasting fantastic!
Again, if you ever need to speed up the wet cure or a brine process you do all the same stuff plus injecting the solution into the meat all over. This will save many many many days in cure/salt traveling all the way through for big thick cuts of meat. However, getting aromatics and other slower traveling flavors to penetrate well simply takes time :)

I can't wait to see what how it comes out and well it tastes! :D

 

[Nefarious]

~thirdeye's~ Corning Brine adapted from Pop's Brine
112 ounces of water
16 ounces of beer
22g Cure #1 (note: this is added after the brine has cooled back down)
80g canning salt (Kosher is okay too)
30g white sugar
These are the aromatics I add to the brine:
3 tablespoons pickling spice
1 tablespoon yellow mustard seeds
1 tablespoon brown mustard seeds
1 tablespoon coriander seeds
6 bay leaves
1 tablespoon Old Bay
1 tablespoon crushed garlic
1 tablespoon crushed ginger
1 tablespoon black pepper
1 teaspoon cloves


Step 1 - Combine all ingredients EXCEPT Cure #1 into a stock pot. Slowly bring up to a simmer and cook for 1 hour. Do not let this mixture come to a boil. Allow to cool on the stovetop, then refrigerate overnight.
Step 2 – Add the Cure #1 to the chilled brine and mix very well. Measure an amount of brine equal to 10% of the meat weight (for example: 2000g of meat needs 200g of brine for injecting). Inject the brine into the meat. Then add the meat into the chilled covering brine, and cure for 13 to 15 days, agitating the liquid daily.
Step 3 - Remove meat from brine.... rinse well and soak about an hour or so in cold water. Now you have corned beef. It can be cooked using any traditional method you like.

So, I did this this afternoon and think I made a mistake, actually I know I made one mistake. I weighted the water so I know how much salt and cure to add then added all of the aromatics, boiled it etc. The problem is, the weight of the spices.is not added into the weight calculation for salt and cure.

My thought on this is since the salt and cure are only for flavor, a little less cure is better then a little too much so leave that alone. A little more salt then formulated, 1.25% will not be bad since everyone uses more then I did anyway. Is this good thinking or should I do something. I haven't mixed it up with the meat yet.

The real issue is I miscalculated.the day it needs to be done, it cant be done on day of surgery, it must be done day before. So, i am trying to get the meat in the cure as soon as possible. The liquid is at 43° at the moment. Will it matter if I put it together now?

 

[SmokinEdge]

My thought on this is since the salt and cure are only for flavor, a little less cure is better then a little too much so leave that alone. A little more salt then formulated, 1.25% will not be bad since everyone uses more then I did anyway. Is this good thinking or should I do something. I haven't mixed it up with the meat yet.

The salt and the cure #1 are there primarily for food safety first, the benefit is flavor, just to be clear.

The real issue is I miscalculated.the day it needs to be done, it cant be done on day of surgery, it must be done day before. So, i am trying to get the meat in the cure as soon as possible. The liquid is at 43° at the moment. Will it matter if I put it together now?

How many days in brine? And what is the salt percentage?

 

[Nefarious]

The salt and the cure #1 are there primarily for food safety first, the benefit is flavor, just to be clear.


How many days in brine? And what is the salt percentage?

I actually know the weights of all of the spices, i measured.then weighted them.

11 days in the brine, largest height is 2" , 1.25% salt.

So, I can fix the salt, and add the correct amount of cure. If I can put it together now, I'll get an extra half day of cure.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I actually know the weights of all of the spices, i measured.then weighted them.

11 days in the brine, largest height is 2" , 1.25% salt.

So, I can fix the salt, and add the correct amount of cure. If I can put it together now, I'll get an extra half day of cure.

I would roll with it. Everything should be fine. If you decide to up the salt percentage it just aids safety. Salt and cure #1 are all that matters for success. The spices and aromatics are just for flavor and add no value to the actual curing process which is safety driven, only salt and nitrite can accomplish that.

 

[Nefarious]

I would roll with it. Everything should be fine. If you decide to up the salt percentage it just aids safety. Salt and cure #1 are all that matters for success. The spices and aromatics are just for flavor and add no value to the actual curing process which is safety driven, only salt and nitrite can accomplish that.

I feel really good today, started curing first corned beef and made second batch of bulk italian hot sausage.