Converting fermented to ECA

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jbo_c

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I don’t currently have a fermenting chamber and there’s not one in my near future, but I’d like to try some recipes that would typically be fermented. As such, I’ll need to use ECA(or other acidifier) for the tanginess.

Anybody got experience converting recipes this way? Mixing per the recipe and simply adding the correct ratio of ECA seems like the obvious place to start, but maybe somebody’s already gone down this road and has learnings to share.

For instance, many, if not most, of these recipes would also be dried to some degree during the fermentation process. As a result, the spices would presumably be “watered down” in the same sausage utilizing ECA instead.

I don’t have any specific recipes in mind at the moment. Just looking for direction.

Any specific thoughts or guidance?

Jbo
 

cutplug

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jbo_c

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Wasn’t suggesting it would replace fermenting. Wondering how close you could get to the “right” flavor without fermenting.

The ECA is to add the tang that the fermenting you’re not doing won’t be there to add.

Jbo
 
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DougE

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You won't get the same depth of flavor with ECA as you would in a fermented sausage, but if you're just after imparting some tanginess, 17g to 5lbs of meat is a good place to start.

You also don't need a chamber to make fermented sausage unless you're making a dried sausage. You can add your culture, stuff, wrap in plastic wrap for humidity and ferment at room temp. for sausages that are fermented for a short time, then smoked, or otherwise finished.
 
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DougE

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When using ECA, mix it in last and blend just enough to incorporate, then go directly to smoking, or poaching, sous vide, etc. The ECA starts releasing somewhere around 135°. I use it in my Taylor ham, and it gets stuffed and goes right into the SV pot at 152° until the IT reaches 152.
 

Dave in AZ

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Totally doable. In fact, the #1 most popular sausage folks on these forums make is Summer Sausage, and 99% of them use ECA to approximate to ACTUAL SS process which is a Lactic Acid bacteria ferment... SS is actually supposed to be a fermented product, all these ECA are just shortcuts folks have come to accept and like the flavor.

C cutplug has good recommendation on the book above.
DougE DougE has good recommendations for ECA amounts.

I have a bunch of posts about this, and have been running some experiments kately using Taylor Pork roll, as it has a fast ferment without flavor creation, perfect for chemical replacement. Using fermentation, replacing that with Encapsulated Lactic Acid, or Encapsulated Citric Acid. Various scientific studies on the degradation of texture when direct acidification of meat using non Encapsulated products, how much pH drop can happen to at what rates to retain texture. I've got ELA ordered from meat chemical company for research, but last batch got lost in mail and 100 lbs is minimum order...

I probably have some of this in my last Taylor Pork Roll post, where I used an ELA/ECA blend to replace my normal L-HP ferment, you can use search to find it. Ive got some pH measurement in there too.

I tend not to post scientific analysis and research here, or interesting Meat Science studies... it's not really the best place for open intellectual discourse with reference to academic and commercial studies. You will find more folks who read the academic papers of the various University meat programs, over at wedlinydomowe.com, but of course a lot fewer posts.

Somewhere I posted links to 10 papers on chemical acidification using graduated small steps from University of Barcelona, vs. Encapsulated acids which release after the meat bonded texture forms at 135f, vs. Bacterial acidification. Doubt it was here, but probably at meatgistics, same user name.

Im on phone out of town, or I'd add some links to various Balchem Indust. ECA products of different %acid which already have tables for usage amounts to lower pH of pork or beef to target pH levels. Findable on their corporate products site, but its not the SPDS sheets.

For a starter to get an idea of amounts, look at Marianski and Kutas summer sausage recipes vs. Some ECA recipes, looking at fermentable sugars and target pH, vs amount of ECA used per kg meat in the more common recipes. The other well-covered recipe source will be "slim jim" style snack sticks using ECA instead of a ferment, hundreds of recipes for you to look at ECA quantities used, and hopefully a few were diligent enough to give pH meter readings.

Also, indaswamp indaswamp has some excellent posts about dextrose and natural sugars content vs pH drop. And also LoydB LoydB Has some good posts that may be of interest to you.

Hope that's helpful and that you can dig out some useful info there!
 

LoydB

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I don’t currently have a fermenting chamber and there’s not one in my near future, but I’d like to try some recipes that would typically be fermented.

There are strains that ferment just fine at room temperature -- I can personally recommend Flavor of Italy, I've used it for everything I've done pretty much. Just wrap it in cling film and stick it on a pan inside the (turned off) oven to keep the cats away from it. Or a cardboard box for that matter. This is some pepperoni I did last week, just sitting on the counter in the kitchen (inside a turned-off bread proofer). Flavor of Italy, it was done in 14 hours at an ambient between 70-75 degrees F.


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LoydB

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It just occurs to me that maybe you mean you don't have a place to hang stuff to dry rather than a fermentation chamber. If that's the case, there's a ton of stuff you can do that ends up hot smoked.
 

Dave in AZ

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J jbo_c Like LoydB above, I was thinking what would be good things to try, without a drying chamber. I figure you are taking about not having a drying chamber, since you can just ferment on counter top or oven, or a cooler, as mentioned above.

The best candidates for the fermented tang, without drying, to my mind are:
1. Summer sausage.
2. Slim jim style snack sticks
3. Taylor Pork roll
4. US style pepperoni... not great, but recognizable and tasty.

All these can use ECA or better yet an Encapsulated Lactic Acid and ECA blend called Smooth acid, from Mitchlich or Spokane Spice co. All of them can be smoked or sous vide cooked, then you can dry a bit in fridge if desired. Lots of recipes for all 4!
Good luck!
 

DougE

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All these can use ECA or better yet an Encapsulated Lactic Acid and ECA blend called Smooth acid, from Mitchlich or Spokane Spice co.
I have not yet tried LCA, or the smooth acid blend, but I really think I'm just going to actually ferment for future runs of SS, or Taylor ham.
 
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Dave in AZ

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We'll see how it goes when I need to make more lol.
I said the same thing, but honestly I like the smooth acid pork roll just as good as the LHP fermented one, and so fast lol. Heck for that matter, and I know this is heretical, I like my recent spam about as good! I'm gonna keep some pork roll ready though, so any NJ guests don't strangle me in my sleep...
 
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DougE

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I'm pretty satisfied with the spice profile I have, but I do want to see what difference I get with the same recipe in a fermented version. I'm not expecting a huge difference, but maybe more depth in the tangy notes.
 
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DougE

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I'll have to prove this out myself, but I'm of the mind that doing the actual ferment is going to give a more complex flavor than anything added to get that PH reduction instantly. I may be wrong, but we shall see.
 

cutplug

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Wasn’t suggesting it would replace fermenting. Wondering how close you could get to the “right” flavor without fermenting.

The ECA is to add the tang that the fermenting you’re not doing won’t be there to add.

Jbo
Oh gotcha, my bad. good luck and let us know how it goes.
 

jbo_c

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Thanks for all the replies. I have to say, I feel a little goofy as I was sort of conflating the fermenting chamber and drying chamber together when there’s really no need.

Now to find a good recipe to try this with. Would like to make something with a similar profile to Genoa salami. If you have a great recipe, feel free to point me that way.

Jbo
 

zwiller

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D Dave in AZ LoydB LoydB You guys have any insight on using SV to ferment? I think it's a game changer and LOTS of folks doing it online but cannot locate confirmation it's safe. Tempted to reach out somehow to Chris Hansen...
 

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